TheSamba.com :: View topic - All About my Raby Suby--74 Westy to Jake

Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:06 pm

Quote: and letting him snow us into believing he is the only man in the world smart enough to change the cam and pistons, and port the heads on a modern subaru motor that people have been building for all forms of racing for years.

Yes, all forms of RACING, not to be optimized in a 40 year old vehicle that needs more torque than HP..

Also, I challenge you to find many of the components to optimize a Subaru N/A engine, to include camshafts and pistons. I have had to start from scratch with all of these things because all Suby performance is centered around the Turbo engines. We are not attempting to make maximum HP and RPM with the majority of these engines, but more a concentration of power over a much different RPM than the factory engine. This gives the entire engine a big boost of practicality and effectiveness.

The things we have learned and applied are not even considered in the conventional Subaru world, in fact the engines that best fit VW applications are typically disposed of in the Suby world by guys that want big power- they are perfect for a VW.

This one plot says a lot. The things I have learned in the past 18 months are mind blowing and many of them were never sought out by any Suby "Tuner".

BTW- I never said that the parts would not be offered for direct bolt in conversion! I said that **I** had no interest in doing so at a retail level where the general consensus has become "I'll buy your parts, complain about price and then you'll be forced to give me the free information to finish the conversion". Thats not happening.

I have a conference call this evening with the perfect company to retail and support these products- All I want to do is make it work and perpetuate the development of it to perfection.

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:11 pm

Hey Jake, I have enjoyed the pics and progress reports you have posted on our build job. We can't wait to get the bus back home and into the hills.

You can of course continue to post anything you want on this thread or any other that catches your eye.

But why continue? I really don't give a damn about what a few of the usual posters think of the project or of what they might hope to glean on the cheap (or criticize) from your pics, reports, research or development. Why don't you move all of the future pics and progress notes to your site, your forums, and reply only to those who are genuinely interested in the products and technologies you are willing to provide? Why subject yourself to all the BS?

Those who want to bitch or share their valuable research and development insights can find some other Samba thread to hack up.

Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:00 pm

Quote: Oh, was it that picture of the computer monitor he showed us with no usable information in it?

I am sorry that that you don't know what that is.

That said, Ken has helped me see the light. Done sharing about this one here.

Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:41 pm

Jake Raby wrote: Quote: Oh, was it that picture of the computer monitor he showed us with no usable information in it?

I am sorry that that you don't know what that is.

That said, Ken has helped me see the light. Done sharing about this one here.

got a link for your site at least?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:07 am

Moderator's note:
Quote: DON'T post messages for the sole purpose of attacking a person or company or just to start an argument
Let's stick to the topic.

If you want to discuss issues as adults... start an other topic and don't pollute this one. That just makes it easier for the moderators to police.

Thank you.

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:40 am

Here you go stuartz....

http://forums.aircooledtechnology.com/showthread.php?t=4950

It has all been going here for a while but I guess it will start up again on this Jake's Forum.

Man do I hate stupid people ruining things...

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:27 pm

Anything recently posted? haha i only see about 5 posts....

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:17 pm

Well after all the bickering in this thread I don't want this to sound like a criticism, it is just an inquiry for my own learning.

So Jake, I am just curious where you feel the Subaru engine can benefit most from development for use in a VW Bus. Looking at the original design goals for something like my Subaru Forester I can't see how on a basic level it's much different than a VW Bus. My Forester weighs 3800lbs, has the aerodynamics of a brick, and is designed to carry people and gear wherever I want to go. I know that careful assembly and detailed work on mass produced parts will yield some improvement but it seems like for the most part the mission is unchanged. Especially if emission compliance is kept in tact. So what did Subaru leave on the table?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:38 pm

Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:29 am

You don't drop $5000 to $6000 on a transmission.

It can be done for as little as $3,000 to buy the kit, a decent core and some time and patience for assembly.

In fact I have seen in done for $1600 by a customer prepared to purchase the ring and pinion for $1500, do his own fabrication and welding plus lucky dip used transmission for $100. Not the norm, but he's cheap and made it happen.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:21 am

Plus the added benefit of a better gearing and reliability with the suby 5 speed.

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:43 am

Subarugears wrote: You don't drop $5000 to $6000 on a transmission.

It can be done for as little as $3,000 to buy the kit, a decent core and some time and patience for assembly.

In fact I have seen in done for $1600 by a customer prepared to purchase the ring and pinion for $1500, do his own fabrication and welding plus lucky dip used transmission for $100. Not the norm, but he's cheap and made it happen.

Being that all the reference here is dedicated to VW's, what's the gear ratios on the Subaru transmissions? Or is there a decent site on the web with reference info like that?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:00 pm

There are plenty of lists going around of all the different combos of gear stacks. What we like to fit is the fairly close ratio turbo gearset. For example :

1st - 3.166
2nd - 1.882
3rd - 1.296
4th - 0.972
5th - 0.738

There's also the non-turbo style gear ratios :

1st - 3.454
2nd - 2.062
3rd - 1.448
4th - 1.088
5th - 0.871

Combine these with final drive ratios of
3.9:1
4.1:1
Soon available 4.4:1
Soon available 4.86:1
and you have a bag of options.

Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:36 am

Sorry to bump this topic, but I've been dreaming of doing a Subaru conversion on a single cab, and wanted to say I think everyone involved in this has done a great job. Subagear, your site is amazing. Everything is so straight forward, excellent pictures, excellent diagrams. I mean, holy moly, you include CAD drawings for transmission mounts. This is the kind of thing I like to see in the community. I also like the included builds, so no one has to go and reinvent the wheel in a build. Jake, excellent install, I hope for continued success in your ventures.
I find the price to be pretty good, too. When building my Beetles, besides everything possible that could go wrong on the car itself, my engine was stolen. Since I was starting from scratch, I decided to go with a 100% brand new turn key by a respected engine builder, Chico Performance. Very happy with it, love the thing, it ran me... I can't remember now, somewhere in the $4000s. That's as much as it would cost to buy a brand new transmission from Subagear. I also had my transmission refurbished by Rancho, and was quoted $500 but it ended up being $800 because some stuff was bad in it. With that $800, I could've found a decent shape junkyard Subaru motor. See, it all evens out. 8) 8) 8)
I'd like to build the transmission myself, but the cutting of the transmission has me worried. I mean, I've cut the $*%( out of Beetles and put them back together, but cutting the transmission makes me uneasy. I'm a bit confused, though. Is it only certain year/model cases that need to be cut? I know nothing about the changes in Subaru motors and transmissions over the years.
Also, no CAD drawings for Bus or other VW mounts?
Keep up the good work, guys. I like what I see now, can't wait to see what the future holds!

Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:47 am

Subarugears wrote: There are plenty of lists going around of all the different combos of gear stacks. What we like to fit is the fairly close ratio turbo gearset. For example :

1st - 3.166
2nd - 1.882
3rd - 1.296
4th - 0.972
5th - 0.738

There's also the non-turbo style gear ratios :

1st - 3.454
2nd - 2.062
3rd - 1.448
4th - 1.088
5th - 0.871

Combine these with final drive ratios of
3.9:1
4.1:1
Soon available 4.4:1
Soon available 4.86:1
and you have a bag of options.

For comparison, and taken from the Bentley site, so hopefully they're correct :lol:

1st - 3.78
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.82 (through chassis 213 2068 547)
4th - 0.86 (from chassis 213 2068 548)

Final drives of:

5.375 (through chassis 213 2300 001)
4.875 (from chassis 214 2000 001)
4.57 (2.0-liter engines)

The above are for the T4-engined only - T1 have different ratios and final drive, I think.

As I understand, higher numerically for both gears and final drive = better acceleration, lower top speed

Lower numerically = top speed biased

So a 3.78x5.375 will pick-up and go better, but a 3.78x4.57 will rev out to a slightly higher top speed in the same gear?

Is that about right?

Using Glenn's gear ratio Excel spreadsheet, for a standard 1979 2.0 with 185/80x14 tires, at 4000rpm I get:

Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:13 am

Over the weekend I checked out a guys conversion using a new Ford crate motor. If I ever did a conversion (which I won't) that's the way I'd go.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:42 am

Desert....could I ask why a ford mill? Seems the suby size and layout would be ideal

Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:06 pm

Sorry Skills, I don't know the details, size, model, etc., and am not in tune with converting VW's (except big blocks in bugs).
It was a Vanagon. He explainded the purchased adapter to get it to the trans. The mounts, particularly the rear, was a simple nice mount. Lots of room in the engine compartment. Perfect fit with easy access to the engine. Evidently the electronics were just simple plug ins along with his programming of it. He made simple effective heat shields for the exhaust. I don't want to mention dollars but he bought it from some Ford Performance source and the totally complete new ready to go engine was a lot cheaper than redoing a T-4.
Like I said, I don't have any specifics or details except looking it over I was very impressed. It looked so much more suitable than a T-4 crammed into an engine compartment.

He's been having great success and experience driving it. It was loaded with camping gear and that's not an easy drive up to the 7,000 feet at Flagstaff. Many, many miles of 6% grades. And also being an AZ bus it also deals with the temperatures.

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:13 pm

Sounds like the Ford Zetec engine conversion that Bostig put together.

http://www.bostig.com

Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:26 pm

thats what i was thinking.