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Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:30 pm

I have been in the market for a '67 Beetle. There are a few out there, but all of them aren't quite "right", with the exception of ONE. More on that in a minute. It seems to me that the people advertising their "classic" VW's here and other places - namely Craigslist - are not really interested in SELLING their car. If they were, their asking prices would be CONSIDERABLY lower. Here's some questions that come to my mind when looking at said vehicles and their asking prices: So, how long have you had this car listed for sale? How many people call about it or come to look at it? Has anyone made an offer? If anyone has, what was their offer and why didn't you take it? And probably the most important question: Doesn't the fact that you've had your car for sale for X number of weeks/months and you still haven't sold it tell you something??? I have heard people say, "I know my car is worth/has been appraised at (insert $$ amount here)." Here's the sad fact of the matter, folks: Your car is really only worth what someone will pay for it at the time of the sale.

Now, if you will indulge me in a couple of examples... I had a beautiful '71 Super Beetle. I spent many thousands of dollars on it, including a very nice 160hp motor that had a lot of Gene Berg parts in it, including Carrillo rods, and beefed up transmission with an original Crown cast iron super diff. It was a work of love. However, when it came time to sell it - and yes, I HAD to sell it - it had a "sin" against it that at the time I didn't realize: It was a Super Beetle. The price I was asking was RIDICULOUSLY low and I figured I would sell it in a week. Not a single person called about it. I was floored. What I ended up having to do was to part it out and basically have a "fire sale". I wanted to cry the amount of money I had to ask for things to get them moved. For example, I had a pair of 044 Darren Gurrola hand ported L6 heads that had less than 200 miles on them and I had to list them at about 40% of what I paid for them to move them. Same story for the whole rest of the car. But - and here's my point - I GOT IT SOLD. I got completely out of ACVW's at that time (2004), until now; I'm thinking about getting back into it, but I will NEVER AGAIN pay for a car, or fund a project that I cannot at least break even on when I go to sell it. What I discovered is that it is completely irrelevant how much money one spends on a project. That is NOT what makes its value. What makes its value is how much someone will pay for it when it comes time to sell it.

I have a handful more examples of similar stories from my personal experience, but let me finish with one where somebody did it right. I look at the Samba and Craigslist more than once a day hoping that just the right car/deal will come up. A couple of days ago one did. It was a '67 Beetle that was just right - for me, at least. This was the "ONE" I spoke of earlier. It needed nothing. Well, one thing I would change if I could have landed that car and that's that I would have put different wheels on it (I'm a sucker for BRM reps!). It had a custom paint job, really cool custom dash with hundreds of dollars worth of aftermarket gauges, had after market sport seats in the front, had a serious power plant that by its specs I'm sure made about 140hp, and so on. The seller's asking price? $3900. That car sold in less than 24 hours to the first person who came to look at it. I was really P.O.'d because the car was in the Fresno area and I am in the Seattle area. Distance caused me to not be able to pull the trigger on it. In fact, I'd like to find the person who bought it because I'd pay a few hundred more than that and he/she could pocket handful of hundreds from me and turn a nice profit. It seems that 1 out of maybe 20 cars come along like that. Now, I could make an offer on one of your cars out there, but what you are asking and what I'd be willing to pay are so far off as to be a difficult subject to broach; I don't want to insult anybody, but my question is, do you want to sell it? I mean, do you REALLY want to SELL it, like the example above?

I'm off my high-horse now. I'd love to hear other people's perspective on this because I bet I'm not alone, and I bet one of you with one of these cars you've had "for sale" for the past while might have some perspective, too.

Peace all.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:16 am

People don't always sell cars just because they are hard up for money and are desperate to sell.
Many times especially with classic car owners, you are selling one in order to buy another and need to get a certain amount.
I put my Bus up for sale last year because I wanted something different. I liked the bus and had no problems keeping it but if someone wanted it bad enough to pay close to my asking price, great, time for the different bus. Selling it for bottom dollar price wouldn't have gotten me to my goal.

VWs aren't cheap anymore if you buy them online. It's just a fact nowadays.
*Edit: Just to finish the story, my bus did sell. I got a resonable offer not at all below my high asking price and a month later found and bought a Bus that's pretty much exactly what I was looking for and I have so far been enjoying the hell out of.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:59 am

In the Bus world it's called "The Boxrod Syndrome"
Vw owner "Customizes" their Vw to what THEY want, then when they try to sell it, no one wants to pay for all the Customizing done by the seller.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:32 am

crukab wrote: In the Bus world it's called "The Boxrod Syndrome"
Vw owner "Customizes" their Vw to what THEY want, then when they try to sell it, no one wants to pay for all the Customizing done by the seller.

Exactly. And sellers need to keep that in mind when it comes time to sell their car. Speaking for myself, from now on I will always keep in mind how much I could sell my car for when I start a project on that car.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:34 am

I agree products are only worth what someone will pay.
Its also a case where a seller has a figure in thier mind, usually after browsing around TheSamba classified where many car/truck prices are out of reality. Sellers put a price on something and try to stick to that because "thats what they are worth" in thier mind. Comparable cars that are referenced may be in better or worse condition. Usually if a buyer is persistant and patient enough the price usually comes down to a manageable level. The biggest issue is the patience part. Most people/buyers today WANT IT NOW... cant wait.... gotta have it, and usually pay for it, even if they cant afford it. Its those of use who "shop" sometimes loose out on a purchase that way. Real VW owners usally have an emotional connection to thier car, and sometimes that has a value that is figured into the asking price. I agree VW's are not cheap anymore, and in todays society are not very good cars for the modern public. Its those who have had ties to VW experience that want the cars. Its more of emotional/symbolic attachment that bring seller and buyers together. Emotion is a big factor in a purchase of a VW. Are you willing to pay for it is the question.

Im a buyer/seller/builder. Building labor in the end is usually free, hard to recoupe that.

If you're a buyer and miss out on something because you need to think about it....Snooze you loose.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:07 am

I agree that there are lots of cars that are overpriced.

There are also cars that are worth the crazy prices but you can't tell unless you see them in person. The reverse of that is true too - there are tons of cars that look great in photos and are piles in person.

Myself, I've sold a few cars and most sold very quickly and most for full price or close to it.

I priced the cars at very close to what I wanted and all were fairly priced, maybe even under-priced a little so basically as soon as I got an offer, the car was sold. Some people don't realize that when you are selling a car, you want it to sell quickly. If it sits around for a while, even if the price is good, people think something is wrong because why else hasn't it sold?

One Bus I was selling fell victim to this (I believe). It was expensive but priced fairly, to the point where 10-15 people could not believe it had not sold in 6 months. I finally put it on eBay to expose it to a "new" market. You wouldn't think anyone new would see it and it didn't meet reserve there but it sold to someone who saw it on eBay about a month later... for my full original price.

When I've bought cars, it's been random. I've bought more than one car off this site for around 60% of the asking price - I just had the wait for the seller to realize they were wayyyy over priced and mine was the best & serious offer. I've also bought cars for full price with zero negotiation because it was exactly what I wanted at that time and I didn't want to miss out.

Some people are just waiting for "someone with more money than brains" to come along and buy it. I put that in quotes because I have seriously heard that before from sellers - multiple times. One car the guy told me he wasn't getting any offers and he would sell it to me for $20,000 less! Keep in mind that was still about $10K too much though, LOL. It was an expensive Bus. He eventually did find someone with more money than brains... and that guy ended up selling it a couple years later and losing a bunch of money. ;)

Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:23 am

I sent the seller in Pacifica a $500 non-refundable bank transfer deposit to hold my '69 for 30 days. I Knew it would sell before I got there in person! We drove our '67 down and drove them both back to OR.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:14 am

Sounds like you want the owners of cars for sale to give them away. But only do that as long as they hold them for you.

You are right, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it. That does not mean it is worth what YOU will pay for it.

If I have a car for sale, the asking price is based on many things. How much I have invested is just one small part of that equation that may or may not be a deciding factor in what I accept.

The old addage You Snooze, You Loose, holds true. In this day and age of internet and computers there is only one reason a car you were interested in got away. And that is YOU were too slow to pull the trigger.

A few key strokes and the seller has a deposit to hold it until you get there.

Sometimes finding your dream car can be a chore. It isn't always easy. These cars are getting older and more of them disappear from the market everyday.

So either step up and be ready to dig deep, or buy an axe job abandoned project and spend a few years trying to make it right again.

The original owner of my 55 sold it some time ago for $25. Now he wants the car back. I told him I would be happy to sell it to him along with the parts I purchased for it for what I had spent. He was happy until he heard the figure, then he nearly peed his pants.

Some people who are looking to get back into the pool don't realize that time moves on and prices go up. I would have loved to have only paid $25 for my 55, but the reality is I paid waaaay more then that. And I'm NOT about to sell it and take a loss just so the previous owner can own it again.

So get over your rant and keep looking. There are cars out there that are what you are looking for, but you may have to step up to the plate and spend more then you think.

Just because it's for sale doesn't mean it has to go quick.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:26 pm

@drscope - Your reply reads to me to be a little bit unnessarily harsh, and as if you didn't really read my post. Buyers give their car away? No. Not at all. Here's another example. There is a particular car on here that I really like. It basically needs nothing and is beautifully customized, at least what I can tell from the pictures. However, the seller is asking over $15,000, and the car has been for sale here for quite a long time. It is a beautiful car, make no mistake. However, the way I look at it is, I could go to a handful of used car dealers around my area and buy a low mileage 2011 V6 Mustang for that money, and the Mustang - as a car to DRIVE - is superior in every way to the VW that I'm thinking about.
The idea of sending a deposit for the purchase to secure the car before going to pick it up did not occur to me in reference to the '67 I was referring to in my original post. I won't make that mistake again!

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:02 pm

britegreenVWSB wrote: the seller is asking over $15,000, and the car has been for sale here for quite a long time. It is a beautiful car, make no mistake. However, the way I look at it is, I could go to a handful of used car dealers around my area and buy a low mileage 2011 V6 Mustang for that money, and the Mustang - as a car to DRIVE - is superior in every way to the VW that I'm thinking about.

That's not really how this works. Try going to Barret Jackson with that argument. So go buy the Mustang already. See ya.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Bart Dunn wrote: britegreenVWSB wrote: the seller is asking over $15,000, and the car has been for sale here for quite a long time. It is a beautiful car, make no mistake. However, the way I look at it is, I could go to a handful of used car dealers around my area and buy a low mileage 2011 V6 Mustang for that money, and the Mustang - as a car to DRIVE - is superior in every way to the VW that I'm thinking about.

That's not really how this works. Try going to Barret Jackson with that argument. So go buy the Mustang already. See ya.

Now, now; let's not be mean spirited here. I AM an enthusiast, but I don't have that much money to spend on ANY car.
Hmm. I brought up this subject to have a CIVIL discussion about this project. Let's not be trolls, okay?

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:24 pm

britegreenVWSB wrote: Bart Dunn wrote: britegreenVWSB wrote: the seller is asking over $15,000, and the car has been for sale here for quite a long time. It is a beautiful car, make no mistake. However, the way I look at it is, I could go to a handful of used car dealers around my area and buy a low mileage 2011 V6 Mustang for that money, and the Mustang - as a car to DRIVE - is superior in every way to the VW that I'm thinking about.

That's not really how this works. Try going to Barret Jackson with that argument. So go buy the Mustang already. See ya.

Now, now; let's not be mean spirited here. I AM an enthusiast, but I don't have that much money to spend on ANY car.
Hmm. I brought up this subject to have a CIVIL discussion about this project. Let's not be trolls, okay?

I'm not being mean spirited. I am merely encouraging you to explore the bounds of your argument. None of our ACVWs are anything but unsafe, polluting anachronisms on skinny tires that aren't worth putting money into vs. a modern car, from an engineering perspective. If, however, you get a kick out of obsolescence and connecting with the past in a mechanical way, it's worth it. If you can't afford the particular car, it's not really your place to argue with the seller about the "whys" of his or her pricing. Many would deem that to be rude. You can just say thanks and move on, even if he's on a crack pipe as surely many sellers are. But you don't really get to whine about it except on the whine thread, and only when you can show the seller's fingerprints on the crack pipe.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:50 pm

I paid 10k for my Bus. 10k could have gotten me a pretty nice used car that is faster, better handling, more creature comforts, safer, more room, etc, etc, but that's not what I wanted. I wanted a Bus so that's what I got.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:52 pm

Gotcha. It's all good. The only thing I'd like to clear up is that I would never have this argument w/ a specific, individual seller. You're right; that would be rude. But, I did want to bring it up here generally to see what you all are thinking w/ regards to asking price of the cars you've sold or are trying to sell, because obstracting from my original post, I don't get it, especially when compared to my previous experience w/ this sort of thing.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:55 pm

It's like I said before, it all depends on your reasons for selling.
I asked what I thought was a high price for my Panel. I liked it and I had no problems keeping it and if I still had it, that would be alright. However I wanted something different. I was only willing to sell if I could get enough money to buy what I was looking for.
That's totally different than, I'm going through a divorce/paying medical bills/etc and I need money fast.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:55 pm

Some people advertise their cars for sale for a high price for various reasons.

1.) They have been "told" it is worth that much.
2.) It has been appraised for that much. (we all know the difference between real world value and appraised value.
3.) They have lost some interest in the vehicle but not enough to give it away. They can afford to stick a higher price on it to see if anyone bites, if not, not a big deal for them.
4.) I know some sellers who are advertising their vehicle because their other half wants it gone. One guy said to me he has bought himself loads of time telling his better half that no one is interested in the car. He doesn't want to sell but as an appeasement, he listed it for a retarded amount so it WON'T sell.
5.) Some people just get a sick pleasure to see what kind of attention their car will get. They don't want to sell but want the attention that you can get by listing a nice car.
6.) The seller is trying to get their money back from their "investment". Kind of what you alluded to. Cars for the most part, are not investments. If a car needs any type of work, most likely you will not recoup your purchase price + your parts and maybe labour costs. Buying a car because you want to get your investment back is just plain nuts.

I remember when my uncle sold his '68 Standard. He had it appraised at $8500 (back in the early to mid '90's) and priced it as such. This was a car that needed brake work, had gas leaking into the oil and needed heater channel and jack point work. All original, 1 owner car though. It sold for pretty much his asking price. He was motivated by the market and demand of the time, not that he ever needed the money. He sat on the car until it sold for what he wanted.

You also have to remember that different areas of the country will command different prices due to rust and availability. I visited San Diego and in the first 10 minutes from leaving the airport I spotted roughly 15 times the ACVW's I do in a year where I live (outside a VW show). These were all DD's. Cheap in Cali, bloody expensive in salt and snow areas.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:30 pm

britegreenVWSB, Don't take it personal! I'm not trying to be harsh.

This is sort of like buying and selling on ebay.

When I have an item to sell, NOBODY wants to buy it, but when I want to buy the same item, I have 200 people bidding against me who are ready willing and able to spend a lot of cash for it.

Bottom line is any car you want to buy is only worth what YOU are willing to pay for it. If the seller is asking too much, move on and keep looking.

Some folks ask big money and have their cars for sale for a long time. not because they want to sell it, but because they want to sell it at that price if a buyer comes along.

I drive past a lot of used car lots and they ALL have certain cars that sit for a really long time. But they won't take less then their asking price either. For them its business and they can't afford to take less.

So unless you know the sellers circumstances, you can't really judge if they are making a wise choice or not.

Selling on E-bay with a reserve is one way to make a sale and/or protect yourself.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:27 pm

To add to some comments above about appraisals:
One of the cars I own was appraised by the seller.
The appraisal value was insane in my opinion.
I think he suspected as much but he still asked just a little under the appraised value.

I bought it after a year of him trying to sell it, with various price drops, for under 1/2 of the appraised value.

Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:47 pm

Don't you know that the samba is simply a VW show and tell? I've put up my VWs in the past at what some have called silly-low-prices. I simply sold them at the price I KNEW someone would pay right away. If I were to show-and-tell I'd post it in the gallery. Not everyone is desperate to sell, some are just fishing for profit, some are just pissed at the fact they know they've lost money and are looking for a sucker to bail them out. This is exactly why I'm done with Buses. The fun is gone. It's all about the money. Old Chevy trucks are the new VW, who knew???

Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:01 am

As has been mentioned above, location has a lot to do with it. Here in the "salt belt", you have a hard time finding a rust free car. I sold a car last summer for what I was asking for it, and it never made it to craig's list, e-bay, or the Samba classifieds. It sold by word of mouth, since it didn't even have a sign in it. :shock: A friend of mine asked what I wanted for it after mentioning that I was looking at selling it. He told someone else, and before long it was sold.

Another thing to keep in mind, some cars go for higher prices, because paint isn't cheaply priced anymore. Body and paint shops charge the same for a bug, as they do a chevelle or any other type of car. Why? because they all need the same type of labor. Cheap VWs are long gone now, unless it's a project vehicle. Add in that you were looking for a specific year (highly sought after), and you're just going to have to pay more. It's just the way it goes. For some, it's finding an early that they want, for others it's a later car, so they can get it cheaper (not as much demand). Supply and demand come into play at times too. In your case (the OP), you might want to look for a partly done project vehicle, the the current owner has to sell for some other reason. You can get them cheap enough, IF you look around. :wink: