TheSamba.com :: View topic - My Progressive Carb to Fuel Injection Journey...

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:23 am

I'm creating this thread as a way to track my journey from the progressive carb I have now, to the fuel injection setup I hope to have working in the coming month or so.

I have read through many similar posts on here, as well as the wealth of information on Ratwell's site about FI. At this point, I'm trying to get all of the correct components, hoses, etc... for my late 76 bay westy.

The parts I'm currently missing are as follows:
ECU
7 pin AFM
Cold start valve
egr rod on plenum
egr tube in engine compartment
egr tube below tin, connects to exhaust
vacuum advance distributor
vacuum hoses

Any help you guys have along the way would be greatly appreciated. I'm more of a shadetree mechanic than anything. Working on my buses is more of a hobby than anything, but has been fun over the past year.

We'll start off with question number one. I'm in need of most hoses related to FI found in the engine compartment, more specifically, vacuum hoses, fuel vapor recovery, and some fuel delivery items.

I have searched the classifieds, bus depot, go westy, bus boys, and german supply for what I need. It seems like german supply has the most organized options in their kits, but man are they pricey. I know you get what you pay for, but I'm trying to keep the costs in line a little bit.

Do any of you have any other good resources for these lines/hoses?

Thanks in advance,

Brett

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:47 am

Sounds like fun!

Try http://www.bughaus.com/type250.htm

And also look up the user geebee on here, peep at his classified ads.

Good luck!

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:14 am

Thank you for the response Tony. He has the molded C hose I need. Only 28 hoses left to find! haha

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:22 am

id contact Chris at bustedbus.com to see how many of those bits you could get from a single source, rather than getting bits and pieces from a dozen or more sources.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:49 am

Do yourself a favor, and de-activate the EGR equipment, unless you are in a smog state. My guess is that you will never find an EGR filter that connects to the muffler. Use a delete plate in the plenum, and on the exhaust, and leave it at that. If you are concerned about keeping the look of an EGR equipped engine, you can still install the visible EGR engine equipment with the block off plates in place.

You should also post a list of what FI equipment you do have, so we can comment on missing items that you haven't considered. Good luck.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:10 am

Thanks for the input everyone. I sent an inquiry to Chris at BustedBus to see what he can help with. Good call on the EGR blockoff, I saw that piece available and think it will save me a few $$ and a headache.

The parts I currently have are as follows:
Intake Runners w/ new boots
intake gaskets
fuel rails
injectors - sent off to be tested/cleaned by cruzin'
pressure regulator
aux air valve
air plenum
thermo time switch
fuel pump
wiring harness with 7 pin afm plug
6pin afm with airbox - I know I need a 7 pin afm
series resistor
decel valve
sboot with plastic y tube

I think that's it

EDIT: I forgot to include that I do have the Charcoal canister

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:27 am

I highly suggest going with a vacume advance distributor to run FI.
If you dont already have one.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:35 am

bhuser wrote: Thanks for the input everyone. I sent an inquiry to Chris at BustedBus to see what he can help with. Good call on the EGR blockoff, I saw that piece available and think it will save me a few $$ and a headache.

The parts I currently have are as follows:
Intake Runners w/ new boots
intake gaskets
fuel rails
injectors - sent off to be tested/cleaned by cruzin'
pressure regulator
aux air valve
air plenum
thermo time switch
fuel pump
wiring harness with 7 pin afm plug
6pin afm with airbox - I know I need a 7 pin afm
series resistor
decel valve
sboot with plastic y tube

I think that's it

Off the top of my head:

The TTS and AAR are mounted on brackets that attach to the engine.
Double Relay
Brake Booster tee (nice repro available at Airhead Parts)
Your late '76 should have a 7 pin AFM
Charcoal canister
Cold Start Valve
Note: auto and manual decel valves are different
ECU: auto and manual are different
TS2
Various hoses: all are pretty easy to find
How's your engine tin?
Correct Throttle body, return spring, etc

Looks like your are getting pretty close.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:42 am

i have a complete engine and FI system from a late '76. The one of the heads dropped a valve seat. i don't think i want to break up the FI stuff, and my preference would be to sell it all. I can deliver it to KC the week of 3/26. I'm traveling there from Denver that week. If interested let me know and we can start talking specifics.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:45 pm

@78Kombi: I completely agree with you. From what I've read the 009 will run, but the svda would run out smoother. I'm not a fan of the 009, but that's what she came with. I'm hoping to find a good deal on one b/c the ACN one, although rated pretty highly, is a bit spendy.

@Westfabulous: Thanks for the heads up on the brake booster tee. I believe I have the corred throttle body and the engine tin is good. I have been using Ratwell's FI compatibility chart to try and line up the right parts.

@pb24ss: I'll ping you via PM.

Thanks for the suggestions/comments so far everyone.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:09 pm

Just curious - Why are you wanting to retrofit the stock EFI stuff on there when there are better (imho) setups out there which aren't as 'tricky' to install and run - look up the MicroSquirt box - I've been toying with putting one of those in the bus when I put the engine back into it instead of the progressive weber that came in the box o parts that I got... http://www.microsquirt.info - seems that it could eliminate the factory AFM (and restriction) in favor of a MAP or hot wire MAF, control ignition timing, and eliminate the ancient computer setup and old wiring headaches and give a more modern diagnostic interface...

If you're on the MO side I don't think anyone doing an inspection on the bus is going to know/care that it was updated with more modern stuff as long as it was done cleanly and didn't look hacked up.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:09 pm

Westfabulous wrote: Do yourself a favor, and de-activate the EGR equipment, unless you are in a smog state. My guess is that you will never find an EGR filter that connects to the muffler. Use a delete plate in the plenum, and on the exhaust, and leave it at that. If you are concerned about keeping the look of an EGR equipped engine, you can still install the visible EGR engine equipment with the block off plates in place.

You should also post a list of what FI equipment you do have, so we can comment on missing items that you haven't considered. Good luck.

If you search you will find several posts by Karl before he died where he stated that it was his experience that a disconnected EGR was at fault for high head temps. Below is one such post. The EGR lowers the amount of oxygen available which cools the burn and lowers head temps. I concur with that. While it is a pain to find a good EGR valve, if you are going to run FI then running the EGR is not a bad thing. If you run dual carbs and jet to the rich side you probably don't need the EGR. The pressure drop across the venturi in carbs also lowers temps. There is no such mechanism in FI.

As to putting FI on - buy a whole setup coming off a 1976. I believe there were two setups in 1976 as it was a change year. The late 1976 is like the 1977 and the early closer to the 1975. I would use the late system if possible as it is about the same from late 1976 to 1978. I would not pay more than $100 for a whole FI set coming off a trashed motor as you will still need to replace and fix things. If yo uplan long trips then I would consider all new parts that can be located. It is more expensive but will yield 100,000 trouble free miles.

Karl wrote: Why do you want to block off EGR?

It is designed to lower NoX emissions.

Its benefit is lowering combustion temperature which is a big PLUS ... Sure, your mileage will suffer but your engine will last longer.

In the late '70s on US cars, we used to disconnect EGR to improve performance and mileage but the engine would ping on acceleration.
Very BAD thing to have happen. Reconnecting the EGR valve stopped it.
EGR is a design feature that works hand-in-hand with all the other emission controls. NoX forms when combustion temps go above 2500 degrees F.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:09 pm

@bwiencek: I know the old FI system is antiquated, but wanted to get it back to stock. Can't say I've seen the system you sent a link to, but I'll check it out. Thanks for sending that.

I'm located on the Kansas side, so the inspections aren't a problem.

@SGKent: Very interesting read, as I had not thought about head temps changing as a result. Makes sense though, so I'll have to dig a little deeper. If I can get the parts without breaking the bank, I'd love to get it all setup. I found a guy with the egr rod on the plenum, and the egr tube in the engine compartment, but not the flat square piece that has connections to the tin and exhaust reasonably priced.

From what I heard these things run out pretty well when everything is sorted and working the way it is supposed to. That's exactly what I'm after.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:39 pm

airkooledchris wrote: id contact Chris at bustedbus.com to see how many of those bits you could get from a single source, rather than getting bits and pieces from a dozen or more sources.

X2

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:32 pm

bhuser wrote: @SGKent: Very interesting read, as I had not thought about head temps changing as a result. Makes sense though, so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

It seems that the majority of people are running with their EGR disconnected these days. Karl was a smart guy for sure, but I suspect the effect of a difference in head temps is negligible, with or without a functioning EGR. I have been running with a disconnected EGR for years, and just inspected my heads when they were off - no sign of damage or recession at all. I have not experienced heat issues either, but then again, I don't use my bus as a daily driver.

Scott sells the EGR block off kit and he is no dummy either; if he had concerns, I'd be surprised if he would sell the equipment to facilitate an EGR block off. It seems counter-intuitive that pumping hot exhaust (pre-muffler and CAT) into the plenum could result in lower combustion temperatures, but I must acknowledge that anything's possible. Anyway, OP, do what you need to do; I'd put in the delete plates and move on.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:45 pm

I am at this very junction and i decided to use germansupply.com block off kit and then in time the plan is to rework a new 78 filter to fit my 79. They are very similar in design, just needs a little extra pipe length to make my connection. I am only going to rebuild mine as i want the stock look.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:19 pm

Westfabulous wrote: bhuser wrote: @SGKent: Very interesting read, as I had not thought about head temps changing as a result. Makes sense though, so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

It seems that the majority of people are running with their EGR disconnected these days. Karl was a smart guy for sure, but I suspect the effect of a difference in head temps is negligible, with or without a functioning EGR. I have been running with a disconnected EGR for years, and just inspected my heads when they were off - no sign of damage or recession at all. I have not experienced heat issues either, but then again, I don't use my bus as a daily driver.

Scott sells the EGR block off kit and he is no dummy either; if he had concerns, I'd be surprised if he would sell the equipment to facilitate an EGR block off. It seems counter-intuitive that pumping hot exhaust (pre-muffler and CAT) into the plenum could result in lower combustion temperatures, but I must acknowledge that anything's possible. Anyway, OP, do what you need to do; I'd put in the delete plates and move on.

I think a better description of those parts is what some manufactures called them - an anti-knock or octane valve - it is designed to reduce the combustible gasses in the cylinder and reduce the tendency for pinging and thus octane under light load/cruise.

Think of it this way - the exhaust gas is depleted of available oxygen to support combustion - thus if you introduced fuel and mixed it with 'pure' exhaust gas and tried to light it there would be little to no reaction as there wouldn't be any oxygen to support the burn of the fuel and if you did get a burn it would be slow and lazy. That's an extreme example but you can see how introducing a little inert gas into the intake would reduce the "bang" in the cylinder and thus reduce the net heat created by the combustion of the gasses.

Hope that makes sense for some on how it can lower temps...

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:19 pm

bwiencek wrote: Westfabulous wrote: bhuser wrote: @SGKent: Very interesting read, as I had not thought about head temps changing as a result. Makes sense though, so I'll have to dig a little deeper.

It seems that the majority of people are running with their EGR disconnected these days. Karl was a smart guy for sure, but I suspect the effect of a difference in head temps is negligible, with or without a functioning EGR. I have been running with a disconnected EGR for years, and just inspected my heads when they were off - no sign of damage or recession at all. I have not experienced heat issues either, but then again, I don't use my bus as a daily driver.

Scott sells the EGR block off kit and he is no dummy either; if he had concerns, I'd be surprised if he would sell the equipment to facilitate an EGR block off. It seems counter-intuitive that pumping hot exhaust (pre-muffler and CAT) into the plenum could result in lower combustion temperatures, but I must acknowledge that anything's possible. Anyway, OP, do what you need to do; I'd put in the delete plates and move on.

I think a better description of those parts is what some manufactures called them - an anti-knock or octane valve - it is designed to reduce the combustible gasses in the cylinder and reduce the tendency for pinging and thus octane under light load/cruise.

Think of it this way - the exhaust gas is depleted of available oxygen to support combustion - thus if you introduced fuel and mixed it with 'pure' exhaust gas and tried to light it there would be little to no reaction as there wouldn't be any oxygen to support the burn of the fuel and if you did get a burn it would be slow and lazy. That's an extreme example but you can see how introducing a little inert gas into the intake would reduce the "bang" in the cylinder and thus reduce the net heat created by the combustion of the gasses.

Hope that makes sense for some on how it can lower temps...

Thanks for the explanation. I find that the EGR pipe that runs from the exhaust pipe to the plenum gets really hot, and so would the inert gas be then; that is what I was getting at: the offset between inert cooler burning gas, and the extra heat now introduced to the combustion chamber by virtue of the fact that the gas is straight from the exhaust system. It seems to be me that the inert gas that is introduced to the combustion chamber via the EGR, and which reduces the quality of combustion, would need to be offset at the throttle (more air, vis a vis, more heat), to restore the quality of ignition to what it would have been without the EGR gasses introduced. The whole EGR operation discussion seems very push / pull to me, but I don't profess to know much about the ins and outs of it. You gotta love emissions equipment.

If the filters for '79 systems were readily available, I would re-connect my EGR, as I have every other piece in tact and operational.

Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:41 pm

Good discussion ^^ Thanks for you input on your experience. The information on everyone's experience with FI setups is what is driving me to get this all setup.
I could sure save a few dollars and keep the progressive carb, but what fun would that be?! I just want her to run as good as a ~2 ton metal toaster powered by a 4 cylinder can! Love these things...

Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:44 pm

bhuser wrote: Good discussion ^^ Thanks for you input on your experience. The information on everyone's experience with FI setups is what is driving me to get this all setup.
I could sure save a few dollars and keep the progressive carb, but what fun would that be?! I just want her to run as good as a ~2 ton metal toaster powered by a 4 cylinder can! Love these things...

FI is the way to fly. It is easy to troubleshoot as well. That is not to say that you won't spend many hours trying to find your problem, 'cuz you will, but overall, it is an intuitive and reliable system.