TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:49 pm

I LOVE this forum and frequently read through most of the posts. It's so common to see folks wanting to find a good place for paint but are stunned with the costs going over $1,000. Please understand that this note is simply intended to comfort those who are frustrated or confused about high costs... It is extremely expensive to operate a proper, clean and REPUTABLE auto body shop in the USA. The regulations in terms of air pollution, toxic waste and so on are forcing costs higher and higher every year, not to mention the costs of keeping a good paintbooth at 70 degrees all day long. Before you think you want a cheap paint job, please sit back, contemplate whether your VW is worth ruining by covering it with low-quality paint and poor workmanship. Good work is costly. Accept it. If you want to have a nice VW, save up. It's no cheaper for any other kind of car. Just because a VW was an affordable car back in the day, so was a Corvette at one time. This is a different world.

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:06 pm

Good Job!!! Quality work does cost $$$'s. For a business, a business license, liability insurance and a lifetime of knowledge costs money. If they are not profitible, they don't stay in business. My last VW refinishing project cost $3000 just in materials. Not counting 100's of hours preperation, refinish and colorsanding. You can only get out of something what you are willing to put into it.

Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:44 pm

People get the wrong idea on what good work will cost as the rely too much on what a "Cheap" shop will quote them, or a friend of friend will paint their car for $200 bucks. The real truth of the matter is that a paint job is not any different than having a motor built.

If you are on a budget and just want El Cheapo to throw you a motor together with junk parts then you get what you pay for. But if you want quality parts, longevity, and workmanship that will last then you have to pony up the dough to pay for all that.

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:00 pm

...guys i gave up on this a long long time ago...remember,we are on the bottom of the food chain in the automotive world.

...when people see paint it's easier for them to see the defects in the paint,pick apart any and all flaws and gripe about the cost of materials not to mention the time it takes to graft rags,floors and rust repair...and when things go bad and get out of control...look out.

-but yet the same guy buys a motor for 7-8k and doesn't blink an eye...or how about he just had blown 2k on interior bits...funny no problem there though...wierd ey?

-the biggest problem are the f--kin hacks that troll the internet (and our real life neighbor) and love to talk like they have a clue on what it takes to rip a car apart for a customer, never having to give an "estimate" on a "can or worms" ...or even better,not having to "own " the paint job or mech. BS because they don't have a shop....one or 2 cars a year isn't even on the same planet.

-but own a shop,you have to own everything from the motor to the headlights....and if there is a prob..yeah your gonna be blasted the next day or when the prob arrises,maybe even a few years later!! (even on the internet) ...and tore the hell up..but there the funny thing,if the customer paid the money it was worth and never gave a lick of arguement....well friends you BETTER stand by your customerand own it...he paid for it and give him what he paid for.

who the hell does that these days?...no wonder everyone is so inclined to do it themselves...i dont f--kin blame 'em...i waited a year for a motor once and also another year for a freakin trans...both were pieces of s--t and blew up months later and both of these together were 18k!!!

are they around?...nope. did they get their money? yep...was i trusting them to do the same i would for my customers? yep.

this is why we will forever be the lowest of th low and the most hated when people have to spend the money,that said if we do the best we can,charge what it's worth and the customer agrees to all terms and conditions..then we HAVE to own it,stand by it and make em feel that their money is well spent.
T

Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:29 pm

..on another note:

cars can be built for decent money..yes turn key even...by working out a budget with the customer and by having the customer buy the parts and bring them to you ,helps the guy/girl get a grip on how much YOU would have spent.

by giving these things for them to buy,they feel they are contributing to the build and controling the money....it's no different if i bought it as i do NOT mark up the parts unless i have to go physically go get them..i would rather make the money up in the hrs it takes to build the car and try and fit these junk aftermarket parts on!!

....and with them buying these so called "nice" parts themselves..they realize after watching me and actually comparing the original to the aftermarket, they tend to get why it took 4hrs to put their door together instead of 2!!!

-you can even do this with the materials...send them to the local jobber...have him give them a price quote for the product YOU were gonna buy for them and they get another price check...

-we don't make the money people think we do and here's were "Vintage's" point is made:

-for example:

a '66 beetle...average typical New England rot,2 resprays and a dumpy motor and mechs. at a shop rate of a competitive $65 an hr:

-20 hrs in dis-assembly,body off chassis,complete chassis separation and dis-assembly as well.
-$750 in media blasting
-40 hrs in metal fab-I.E: heater channels,floors inner structers etc
-50 hrs in panel straightening,priming filling etc etc
-$2000 in materials: d/a paper,80/180/320,primers,fillers,spreaders,laquer thinner,paint,clear,runbbing compound,polish,pads and cleaners,degreasers,tape,paper,masks,gloves,suit,desicant material,long board 80/180/320,wet sand paper 1k,2k and finally filters and cleaning of all booths,gun and BS...etc etc etc!!!!
-15 hrs in paint and detail such as jambs under sides etc
-15-20 hrs in buffing cleaning and making it ready to be assembled.
-60 hrs in reassembly to a driving,running car,this includes possibly freshening up the motor,trans electrical etc etc etc.
--$2000 in misc parts for exterior and interior and maybe even motor/chassis bits and peices
-$200-$300 road test and detail,delivery

this is a very very nice show/cruise car,built over a dozen of em in the last few years...28 to be exact.

the cost?

an easy 15-20k!

is this expensive? take a ride to my shop,come on in...sit for a bit and see what it takes to REALLY do em in a way we seen the muscle car guys are getting theirs done in...you'll see.

for the real deal soup to nuts kinda resto...it aint for the faint of heart...and oh yeah you still gotta stay in budget,keep the customer happy and still make it look better than new...cuz guess what? it isn't your personal car,not at your house and not YOUR budget/quality thats expected..it's gotta be higher cuz it's THEIR money,not yours.

oh yeah you got 2-4 months to finish it.

Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:07 am

Like I said, make this a sticky... This post is doing its job 8)

Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:53 pm

Tim and vintage definetly hit he nail on the head!!! I can't count the times I have people want an idea on how
Much it would cost to just do the metal work bodywork and paint there lil bug!! And in reality 10 k is about what it takes to do a full blast and paint job on a rusty beetle! People don't like to hear that but it is what it is!!!!

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:53 am

A good restoration shop will stay in business and people will pay the price. They'll tell their friends, "yea, he's high, but does good work". Most are collision repair shops, only good for replacing bolt on parts. Some don't even own a welder, much less know how to use it. Insurance work keeps most shops operating, and couldn't care less about your classic. I've been restoring vehicles alone for 12 years now and far from an expert. Don't take any outside work, just sell the finished vehicle. But, I'm retired and don't do this for a living.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:09 pm

It's extremely tough running a legitimit bodyshop today, whether it's a resto shop or a collision shop.
I've been in this gig for almost 30 years, done both collision and restoration work. Operated my own small resto shop for 7 loooonnnngggg years.
I've worked on Model As, Citroens, MGs, Beetles, Fords, Mopars, Mercs... just about everything at one time or another. I'm currently working on a 72 Citroen SM and a 58 Corvette.
I've dealt with some of the best customers in the world, and some of the worst.
Some became good friends, some had to be fired.
The skill set and dedication required to be a decent bodyman, let alone a shop owner, is incredible. There are a lot of flakes in the trade, but there are also quite a few good guys. The good guys stay busy and hang around for years, the flakes open up in another location, under a different name.
Most people have no idea how much actual work is involved in fixing their chariots. Most don't care either, their only concern is the bottom line. That shiny coat of paint hides all the hard work underneath it and most people don't care how much work it took to get to that stage. Most soon forget how rough their car really was once it's straight, shiny and in their garage.
Bodyshops are probably the least profitable business one could go into, if you make 10% net profit consistantly, you're doing good.
Goverment regs, insurance, payroll deductions, employees, utilities, advertising, rent, suppliers, they all want a cut of your labour...
It's a tough go, but I couldn't ever see myself doing anything else.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:51 pm

I don't what it is like for the rest of the states, but here in California the body shops have to have a permit for everything. Then you have the EPA, OSHA, AQMD, Etc. breathing down your neck for all sorts of issues. All of these "Extras" also add to the cost of doing business.

Its a fairly small town in which i live and i know most everyone that work in the other body shops in the area. Some can do remarkable work and others............well not so much. We have people come in to get a quote, then tell us the shop down the street will do it for X amount less......most people are shocked when we tell them to take it to that shop. We quote a price on what we feel it will take to do that particular job......we are not about to cut our own throat to save that customer a bunch of money.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:14 pm

VintageVulture wrote: Like I said, make this a sticky... This post is doing its job 8)
good topic, but i don't think it is sticky worthy,..yet.
so many topics warrant a sticky, not all get one or we would have 5 pages of stickys.

Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:10 pm

..yeah not sure bout the sticky but a good topic just to keep at the top every once and awhile for people to see what it really takes for the real guys and not just for the hobbist trying to creep in and "take some fame"..

Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:15 pm

I can relate to owning a autobody shop. I did for several years. I'll never do it again.
The cost of owning and running a autobody shop is just crazy. Especially here in Taxifornia. They want permits for everything, (even a permit for a aircompressor...). And the county, state, and federal rules you have to abide by is rediculous. Workmans comp insurance is out of this world. The list goes on and on..
And that's just to open your doors. Then you have the cost of materials that you have to pass on to the customer. On a full resto, material cost can reach up to $5K depending on which paint and color the customer chooses.
It's just crazy... :roll:
No more for me. Just give me a weekly check and i'm good!

Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:22 am

good post
it take skill, tools, time and money to do this

Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:11 pm

...sure does man,sure does.

but this is what guys are forgetting when they hear your price and material cost...not to mention the cost of the operation..how much actually goes in my pocket?

maybe hundreds a month (if i'm lucky)...not thousands.

and this is why:

and add another 55' of shop and BS...with lifts,storage,parts area it's what monst people pay for a paint job...in a months worth of bills.

Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:28 pm

My sticky title was just an attention getter- no worries. I just wanted this point to be expressed in a way that differed from a lot of the titles I see here such as "paint question" and "please help". This post is for those who know what's truly involved- a Once and For All post- the last time we have to write responses to the questions of "how much will it cost" and "why the heck is it so expensive". If these questions come up we can simply post a link to this post. I told you this was working! :wink:

Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:42 pm

schell '59 wrote: ...sure does man,sure does.

but this is what guys are forgetting when they hear your price and material cost...not to mention the cost of the operation..how much actually goes in my pocket?

maybe hundreds a month (if i'm lucky)...not thousands.

and this is why:

and add another 55' of shop and BS...with lifts,storage,parts area it's what monst people pay for a paint job...in a months worth of bills.

What do you need this for? :roll: ..........don't you know all you need is some plastic sheeting, PVC sprinkler pipe and a good box fan to make a booth :lol:

Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:54 pm

thats funny

Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:46 pm

Oh, and don't forget all the paperwork that you have to do and keep filed... Keeping track of VOC's, permits, ect... Keep fire extinguishers updated, bla bla bla....
I hope you guys don't have it as bad as we do here in good ole Taxifornia.. :roll:

Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:06 am

thankfully no, but , the Compliance cost is going up every day, What amazes me is that some clients don't get that they are directly paying for this .
I now spend more time that than anything else