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OutlawAlice Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:24 pm

I think I need pros and cons, maybe. I bought a motor from a friend who says it was a 1776. It needed a new piston and cyl at # 3 due to a tin screw that apparently had been dropped into the motor. I don't think he had it long before the screw made itself known. He pulled the motor and used the dual dellortos to trade for another motor instead of repairing it. He did, however, pull the head to see what the problem was.

He sold it to me at a low price. I purchased carb, intake, piston, cylinder, etc. Basically everything I need to fix it and run it.

(I'm having a case line bored to build me a 1641. The 1776 is just to get me thru the summer. I have a bunch of shows, one is my own club's that mean a lot to me to drive my bug to. There's my emotional factor. LOL)

Anyhoo, I pull the cylinders off #3 & 4 (3 is the damaged piston) and I scrape #4 to see 91.93.

So I was sold an 1835. I was also told this is really too big for someone who drives as much and as far as I do and that they have a rep for running hot.

Which might all be a moot point if I can't find a replacement piston & cyl.

I might need to add, I used my ENTIRE budget buying what I needed for a 1776. :oops: :cry:

So, in the event I ACTUALLY find a single piston set, is an 1835 really NOT a good driver motor?

Glenn Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:29 pm

A 1835 is not a BIG MOTOR.

My 2180 could be a daily drive if I wanted. It's real easy to drive in traffic and runs cool even in the summer. The clutch is only a Stage 1 and with the right tranny, it gets 28mpg on the highway.

OutlawAlice Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:40 pm

Glenn wrote: A 1835 is not a BIG MOTOR.

My 2180 could be a daily drive if I wanted. It's real easy to drive in traffic and runs cool even in the summer. The clutch is only a Stage 1 and with the right tranny, it gets 28mpg on the highway.

:lol: :lol: So I'm a weenie! To me an 1835 is a big motor. I'd be hooking it my stock tranny and I have a Weber progessive 2bbl. I was driving with a 40hp when I first built my bug then added a Mahle big bore kit, then went to a stock 1600 which thrilled me to death till it got really tired on me last summer. So an 1835 is a leap to me, I guess.

Hubby thinks I'm nuts, but if I can justify it, I will drive it with an 1835. Well. Also if I can find a piston/cyl set to actually make it run. :?

ach60 Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:28 pm

Air-cooled.net is doing a Tech series on "mileage motors" with 90.5 or 94s, and 74 & 76mm cranks.
I would read his tech articles, and then start building.

Teeroy Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:55 pm

If #3 is messed up, buy a set of 90.5 P&C's (case and head hole is the same as the 92"s) and make it a 1776, problem solved.

LeviMan2001 Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:04 am

My super with a 2332 would be lovely to daily drive. The only reasons I wouldn't is, a: I want to keep it nice and if I drove it every day dirty roads would get to it. B: I'm not so confident of the reliability of a big motor like that. C: an old beetle is just not a very safe car when everyone goes 80 mph on the highway (or really in any situation haha). But other than that, it has no trouble starting (I've fired it up in below zero temps), it's lovely to drive when it runs, and it even does okay in the small amount of snow I've driven it in.

So in short, I'd say a 1776 would be an excellent motor for a daily driver, and an 1835 is a fine motor if you don't use the thin wall cylinders. The reason they have a reputation for running hot is that back in the day people used cylinders that had super thin walls and slipped right into a stock block to make an 1835 (easy displacement gains). But if you have the block machined properly and use good cylinders (you could even go to 94 for an even bigger motor) you can build a perfectly fine running (and cooled) engine.

bugninva Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:41 am

there has never been 92 mm cylinders that slip into a stock opening. Standard 92mm cylinders got a bad rap by folks with improperly built and improperly cooled engines. Before 94s came along folks ran 92s, and most had no issues. But as usual, if one person ruined a set everyone "heard" they were junk, but didnt hear that the fellow was missing half of his cooling tin.

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:20 am

Teeroy wrote: If #3 is messed up, buy a set of 90.5 P&C's (case and head hole is the same as the 92"s) and make it a 1776, problem solved.

I no longer have the budget. Most of my available cash has gone into a 1641 build. The case is currently in line to be line bored. This is just a TEMPORARY motor. But what money I set aside for it went to parts i need for a 1776. I just don't have it anymore. :(

Even so, if it were just buying a new set of pistons and cylinders, it would be a non issue. If I had the $145 it costs to order the set of either 90.5mm or 92mm, I'd just do it and be running in a heartbeat. If it wasn't for the shows, I'd just put money back. But I now have a time issue, too.

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:29 am

bugninva wrote: there has never been 92 mm cylinders that slip into a stock opening. Standard 92mm cylinders got a bad rap by folks with improperly built and improperly cooled engines. Before 94s came along folks ran 92s, and most had no issues. But as usual, if one person ruined a set everyone "heard" they were junk, but didnt hear that the fellow was missing half of his cooling tin.

And this is exactly what I've been hearing. I am happy to say I have EVERY single tin, Even the ones that run all the way under and around the cylinders. I just don't see those tins on too many motors any more. The PO was running an external oil cooler as well.

That is more than I want to deal with for a daily. Especially a long distance driver. I want to be able to use my regular case mounted oil cooler, too.

My plan is to find a single replacement piston and cylinder, finish and clean the motor and run it for a bit while offering it up to trade for a good 1600, 1641 or 1776.

After speaking to some folks, poking around the forums and looking at my budget issues. This seems to be the best route.

It's an AS 41 case and what I can measure and check without a total breakdown looks very good.

So now I'm looking for the piston set and going forward with making sure it stays clean and solid.

If anybody knows of a piston set or someone who would like to trade, let me know! I'll post an ad on Samba for it soon.

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:33 am

LeviMan2001 wrote: My super with a 2332 would be lovely to daily drive. The only reasons I wouldn't is, a: I want to keep it nice and if I drove it every day dirty roads would get to it. B: I'm not so confident of the reliability of a big motor like that. C: an old beetle is just not a very safe car when everyone goes 80 mph on the highway (or really in any situation haha). But other than that, it has no trouble starting (I've fired it up in below zero temps), it's lovely to drive when it runs, and it even does okay in the small amount of snow I've driven it in.

So in short, I'd say a 1776 would be an excellent motor for a daily driver, and an 1835 is a fine motor if you don't use the thin wall cylinders. The reason they have a reputation for running hot is that back in the day people used cylinders that had super thin walls and slipped right into a stock block to make an 1835 (easy displacement gains). But if you have the block machined properly and use good cylinders (you could even go to 94 for an even bigger motor) you can build a perfectly fine running (and cooled) engine.

Your concerns with a larger motor for a daily are the same as mine. Longevity and heat. Because we road trip on a regular basis, the "everybody doing 80" is definitely a concern since we're on interstates regularly. We prefer to run in a group and stay in the right hand lane out of the way. :lol:

The PO that I bought the motor from contacted his PO and that PO also stated he was shocked to learn that it was an 1835 and said he never would have sold it. Oh well. Both guys said they never had heating issues so it never occured to them that it was any larger than a 1776.

If I can find a good mic - what are the specs for thin walled vs. regular wall cylinders? Might be something I need to check on or at least know.

vdubnut58 Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:34 am

OutlawAlice wrote:

He sold it to me at a low price. I purchased carb, intake, piston, cylinder, etc. Basically everything I need to fix it and run it.



So do you have the 90.5 set for the 1776? If so you can use those P&C. If I read your first post correct you knew it had a messed up cylinder and bought the parts to repair it. The bore in the case is the same for a 92 or 90.5 so just use the parts you have. Or am I missing something?

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:41 am

vdubnut58 wrote: OutlawAlice wrote:

He sold it to me at a low price. I purchased carb, intake, piston, cylinder, etc. Basically everything I need to fix it and run it.



So do you have the 90.5 set for the 1776? If so you can use those P&C. If I read your first post correct you knew it had a messed up cylinder and bought the parts to repair it. The bore in the case is the same for a 92 or 90.5 so just use the parts you have. Or am I missing something?

I didn't get a full set. Just the one single. I was offered a set of 94's but I think you just confirmed what I was thinking about bore size.

Otherwise it would have been best to change them all at once. Seeing as this was a temporary motor, my plan was to run it this summer and then drop in my 1641 that's being built inside out and keep this one as a back up since it was going to be a bit of a frankenstien. You never know when you or a friend can use a loaner.

krusher Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:20 am

The 87/1641 thin barrels have the same lack of resistance to warping as the thin wall 92/1835's do.

A 1641 would be one one my last choices as an engine size to build, I would just leave it 1584cc (1600) and retain the think cylinder walls.

sactojesse Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:24 am

OutlawAlice wrote: If I can find a good mic - what are the specs for thin walled vs. regular wall cylinders?
Thickwall 92 cylinders (which have only recently become available from China via AA) are bored the same size as needed for a 94 mm cylinder: 101.1 mm at the head/97.25 mm at the case.

Thinwall 92 cylinders (typically Cima/Mahle) are bored to the 90.5/92 mm register and have been available for several decades: 98 mm at the head/96 mm at the case

craigman Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:35 am

A 1835 is a small motor. And if it gets hot in the summer around your area I wouldn't build a 1835 or a 1641. Both have thinner cylnders. Thin cylnders can't dissapate the heat very well like thicker cylnders can.
Either build a stock 1600 or a 1776. Both would be excellent engine for your use.
And no, a bigger motor, like a 2110, or anything with a 90.5 bore, won't run hot if built right. They can actually run cooler. The 90.5 bore has a nice thick cylnder wall. A 2110 is my favorite motor for a street car.

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:39 am

krusher wrote: The 87/1641 thin barrels have the same lack of resistance to warping as the thin wall 92/1835's do.

A 1641 would be one one my last choices as an engine size to build, I would just leave it 1584cc (1600) and retain the think cylinder walls.

I already have the full set up to do a 1641. I thought (I better check) that the cylinders still had thick walls up until the 2110's and up. I didn't know that was even an issue at the 1835 level.

I can see the difference between the thin walls of the 92mm and the 90.5mm. I'll look at my 87/1641 cylinders when I get home this afternoon.

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:42 am

sactojesse wrote: OutlawAlice wrote: If I can find a good mic - what are the specs for thin walled vs. regular wall cylinders?
Thickwall 92 cylinders (which have only recently become available from China via AA) are bored the same size as needed for a 94 mm cylinder: 101.1 mm at the head/97.25 mm at the case.

Thinwall 92 cylinders (typically Cima/Mahle) are bored to the 90.5/92 mm register and have been available for several decades: 98 mm at the head/96 mm at the case

Mahle is what is on the 1845 and also the 90.5 piston and cylinder.

My 87/1641 set is China made. Here's to crossing my fingers in the chance that they are thick walled.

sactojesse Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:49 am

OutlawAlice wrote: sactojesse wrote: OutlawAlice wrote: If I can find a good mic - what are the specs for thin walled vs. regular wall cylinders?
Thickwall 92 cylinders (which have only recently become available from China via AA) are bored the same size as needed for a 94 mm cylinder: 101.1 mm at the head/97.25 mm at the case.

Thinwall 92 cylinders (typically Cima/Mahle) are bored to the 90.5/92 mm register and have been available for several decades: 98 mm at the head/96 mm at the case

Mahle is what is on the 1845 and also the 90.5 piston and cylinder.

My 87/1641 set is China made. Here's to crossing my fingers in the chance that they are thick walled.
There are no "thickwall" 87 mm cylinders. They all use the same size case opening as a 1300/1500/1600 (90 mm) and same size head opening as a 1500/1600 (93.8 mm).

OutlawAlice Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:49 am

craigman wrote: A 1835 is a small motor. And if it gets hot in the summer around your area I wouldn't build a 1835 or a 1641. Both have thinner cylnders. Thin cylnders can't dissapate the heat very well like thicker cylnders can.
Either build a stock 1600 or a 1776. Both would be excellent engine for your use.
And no, a bigger motor, like a 2110, or anything with a 90.5 bore, won't run hot if built right. They can actually run cooler. The 90.5 bore has a nice thick cylnder wall. A 2110 is my favorite motor for a street car.

Okay. I'm confused. Thin walls are better for heat dissipation yet thick walls are less likely to warp from heat.

So I'm looking at a 50/50 chance of longevity either way?

tncsparky Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:09 am

85.5-.163" wall

92 thickwall-.179"

90.5-.148"

92 regular-.118"

88 machine in-.177"

94-.140"

Thin walls are more likely to warp due to the heat issue. The thicker the wall the better.

Find one and run it. If it runs hot, find out why and fix it.
Is the cylinder bad also?
Post a pic of the piston and cylinder



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