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Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:44 am

thought I start this topic in the vintage speed section.

Have a few 850cc, 2 cyl boxer engines from a DAF 44
It has now 40hp and I wanna upgrade it for rally use.
The B&S is 85,5mm - 73,5mm
Valves are 35mm em 31,5mm
CR 7,5 - 1

Because this engine is so similar to a VW engine I wanna use the same upgrade ideas.......

What should be a good start?
Want to change the camshaft and that needs to be custom made.
Is an Engle w110 a good choice in combination with a CR of 9 - 1 and a center mounted Weber 40idf. Bigger valves?
Your thoughts please........

A few pictures of the engine in parts for the idea!!!!!

Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:30 pm

that is cool!

Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:29 pm

Awesome project. Even if you dont put updates on here, please mail me with updates or provide details of blog etc.

Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:37 pm

Yikes there a ton of similarity,s here.Years back I helped build a 917cc bug engine for a airplane pylon racer. Simply a 1835 cut in half. We used a 110cam. 8.3 comp ratio. stock 35.5-32 valves and he supplied the sidedraft.carb system.He claimed it was a great engine unfortunatly I never got to fly it. (Because I dont believe vw,s should leave the ground).Id say go for it. What about bore and stroke?

Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:19 am

Think the biggest limitation is the camshaft. There is not much room for a shaft with bigger cams. With bigger I mean higher.
Not enough space between the cam and the conrods.
Understand this is a problem for the 36hp also.
Think I need to do some research.
There is a way to get some more space.
DAF used to build 600cc and 750cc engines. They had a stroke of 65mm.
The later 850cc has 73,5mm. When I go with a shorter stroke and use the 94mm slip-in barrels. Would end up with +/-900cc.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Forgot to mention: I like the SCAT Split Heads. Think they are perfect for my project when I go for the 94mm option!!!! 8) 8)

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:11 pm

Maybe a ratio rocker is a better option in you situation? Do you know what the rocker ratio Is now?

Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:59 am

Hmmm, not sure what the ratio is now :roll:
Is there an easy way to measure/calculate :?: :?: :?:

Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:12 pm

Did a search on the forum and found this:

"Measure center of pushrod cup to center of rocker shaft, and center of adjuster to center of rocker shaft. Those two numbers divided by eachother will give you your ratio of the rocker"

Is this the way to measure???

Did a quick measurment this way and I came up with 1.4

Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:33 pm

with the power to displacement you already have the cam might already be around a 110 anyway.

how do the head stud spacings compare to a 36hp/later vw? 356?

l&n engineering could probably do you custom P&C to suit your application.
http://www.lnengineering.com/

what are the journal sizes? gudgeon pin diameter? rod length? how does the journal spacing compare to a 36hp or later vw motor?

will a vw oil pump slip in?

probably the most important questions:

what did the factory do on the works rally motors?

what breaks first when these engines are modified?

Tue May 01, 2012 12:37 pm

What a cool project!

I'd follow Henry's advice, doing more homework while mapping out your path.

just throwing observations out there, some things to think about, some possibilities...

The DAF combustion chamber pictured looks a little like a 36hp, but unlike a 36hp VW, yours has a large quench land (a good thing). Since the DAF was a low compression ratio engine made to run on marginal low grade fuel of the time, bumping the compression up a few points, running higher octane fuel to go with it, will give a big power increase. Unfortunately, the Porsche 356, VW 36hp, and VW type 1 all have different stud patterns. A VW 36hp stud pattern for instance, won't allow you to use a 94mm barrel. The groove that the stud passes by will be too thin if the bore is opened to 94mm. As a reference, drag racers accept ~.110 minimum wall thickness at the stud groove, to keep barrels from cracking. JE has an available piston table arranged by bore, pin diameter, and compression height that would be worth studying. Custom pistons start at $225ea, so it's cheaper if you can find a flat top piston that is close already.

Those lifters look like 356 Porsche, so do the rods, but you should measure them and compare. You can't get too crazy with valve spring pressures or cam lobe ramp because of those lifters, the heads are not very well supported by the small diameter of the lifter body.

The rods being in line with cam lobes sounds just like 356/912 Porsche, and 36hp VW. Too bad, because that really limits stroke increase by building up with weld and offset grinding the crank journals. But again, that's another huge commitment of resources, 2-3 cranks, experiments, etc.

I'm assuming you want to increase RPM's to get more power out o fit, so you want to find out what stud pattern you have, to figure out if you could use a commercially available T1 head sawed in half, or a Scat split port. To increase RPM, you will want to get it to breath.

If you are a machinist, or know one who works for beer (or you have deep pockets) you could see if the case has sufficient material to allow you to plug the existing stud holes, and redrill and insert new ones in the Type 1 pattern. IF you could do that, and you wanted to make this a BIG project, you could saw a relatively inexpensive T1 performance head in half, and use that. Same with intake manifolds, and fit them with a pair of Weber IDA's, only using one barrel of each carb on it's respective engine bank, plugging the dead bore's fuel outlets (It's been done more than once) Not as simple as two sentences makes it sound, but not as hard IMO as tuning a set of DAF heads into performers. Maybe.

For higher RPMs, you'll need oil flow as well.

Tue May 01, 2012 3:47 pm

For anyone else who had no idea what a DAF 44 is, here is a pic I found on wikipedia

I have never heard of one before this but wow that is cool! I really want one of those motors.
If you can, please keep us up to date on the build. Even if its just pictures so I can see what that motor looks like when it's all together.

Tue May 01, 2012 4:57 pm

If parts are semi-available, and some interchange with VW, one of these DAF engines might make a perfect fuel mileage engine to slip into a bug or Ghia! I wonder if the mounting bolt pattern and flywheel config is similar to VW?

Wed May 02, 2012 5:44 pm

Tom Simon wrote: If parts are semi-available, and some interchange with VW, one of these DAF engines might make a perfect fuel mileage engine to slip into a bug or Ghia! I wonder if the mounting bolt pattern and flywheel config is similar to VW?

I was kind of thinking the same thing, but the other way around.

That DAF with a big VW motor would be sweet.

Thu May 03, 2012 12:24 pm

The dutch way of racing :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS2x9uGquMM

They used DAF's because they are all variomatics. They go as fast forward as backwards.....

Thu May 03, 2012 1:12 pm

I will do some measurmends and post them.

Thanks for the great help and ideas.

Didn't thought about the possibility that there are people out there that do not know about the DAF.

Short history of DAF passenger cars:

The first passenger car, assigned the model number 600, created a sensation when a prototype was presented in 1958. The car featured a unitary steel construction, with a front mounted, aircooled two cylinder boxer engine driving the rear wheels through a centrifugal clutch and the Variomatic CVT transmission. The way this was constructed eliminated the need for a differential, with the drivebelts taking up the difference of speed in the corners. This acted as a limited slip differential. The car had independent suspension all round, with McPherson struts and a transverse leaf spring at the front, and a coil sprung semi trailing arm design at the rear. The first 600s rolled off the production line in the following year. The next model was the 750, featuring a larger 749 cc twin.

Later, DAF produced a more luxurious type called the Daffodil, divided into three models assigned the numbers DAF 30, DAF 31 and DAF 32. The designation 32 was changed to 33 upon the 1966 release of the 44, a larger middle-class vehicle designed by Michelotti. The 44 featured a completely new design aesthetically as well as mechanically, but was of the same layout as the "A-type's" (the 600,750,30,31,32 and 33), with the main difference being its 850 cc two cylinder engine, and its full swingaxle rear axle design as opposed to the A-type semi-trailing arms.

The 1968 DAF 55 carried a bigger watercooled 1108cc OHV four cylinder engine derived from the Renault 8 Cleon engine. Its body design was altered from the 44 by a new front which accommodated the longer engine and radiator, bigger taillights, and a more plush interior. The front suspension was changed from a transverse leaf spring to McPherson struts with torsion springs and an antiroll bar.

The DAF 66 was introduced as a successor to the 55. It featured new, boxy styling of the front, and a new rear axle design. The two drive belts now powered a differential, and the axle was changed from a swingaxle design to a leaf sprung de Dion-axle. It was a major improvement over the (tricky) handling of the swing axles of the earlier 33,44 and 55 models.

Volvo gained a large interest in DAF in the early '70s, taking over the company and the NedCar plant in 1975. It dropped the 33 and 44 models, and rebadged the DAF 66 as the Volvo 66, with bigger bumpers and a safety steering wheel. The DAF 46 was developed under Volvo, and was basically a 44, with the rear axle of a 66 and a single-belt variomatic (half the 66's transmission). A big weakness of this system is that a failed drive belt would cripple the car. The Volvo 300 series, introduced in 1976 had been designed as a DAF, with a Variomatic transmission similar to that of a 66.

http://www.rallydaf.nl/ with a lot of pictures of rally / race DAF's.
They even won the rally of Monte Carlo in there class... :P

My car is a DAF 44 from '70
I wanna build it as the works rally car from the late sixties.

This the car when I found it.

And this is waht I want it to be.......

Thu May 03, 2012 2:02 pm

henry roberts wrote:
probably the most important questions:

what did the factory do on the works rally motors?

The problem is that when they raced these cars the info from the factory on the technical improvements to the cars was very limited :cry: So now, after 40 years it is very hard to get this info.

Thu May 03, 2012 2:34 pm

Also regarding the bigger bore. I have just enough flesh in the case te get it to a dia. of 96mm. That would fit 90.5/92mm cylinders or slip-in 94mm cylinders.
The stud pattern of the DAF engine is square and measures 80mm.
Know that the distance between the 2 top studs of 1 cylinder from a VW is 81,5mm.
Anyone knows the distance between a top stud and a bottom stud from 1 cylinder?

Thu May 03, 2012 3:13 pm

Dutch VeeRod wrote: The dutch way of racing :roll: :roll: :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS2x9uGquMM

They used DAF's because they are all variomatics. They go as fast forward as backwards.....

OMG that's funny!!! :lol: :lol:

and I thought NASCAR invented crashing after the finish line, the Dutch had this down YEARS ahead of us Yanks! :lol:

Fri May 04, 2012 6:54 am

Did a quick check with the 65mm cranckshaft and cam in the case and with this set-up I have 2-3mm more room between the cam and the conrod then with the 73,5mm cranck.
This with 94mm cylinders it would end as an 902cc engine. Not as big as with the 73,5 stroke (1020cc) but with for example the scat heads Iwould have a lot more flow trough the engine for the higher revs. And there is more room for a "wilder" cam.

The original cam opens the inlet-valve at 13 degr. after TDC and closes at 27 degr. after BDC. The exhaust valve opens 27 degr. before BDC and is closed 13 degr. after TDC. So that is 194 degr. with 2mm valve clearance.

So I think a lot of space for improvement........

Can I find somewhere on the net how high the cams are from for example a w110 cam?