TheSamba.com :: View topic - dual valve spring-engine breakin question

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:50 am

I have heads with dual valve springs. I'm in the process of removing one of the springs to ease the break in cycle. I'm removing the inner spring and then wondered if taking out the outer might be better. This is just for the break in and then it will be reassembled.

Any thoughts?

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:09 am

just remove the inner.adjust lash as normal.but dont forget you will also need to heat cycle the inners befor you go out and kkill it if you expecpt them to last.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:54 am

I agree 100% completely with Mr. Tucker.......for now. :D

Remove the spark plugs, rocker assemblies and pushrods when you crank it for oil pressure. Also make sure your fuel magnets are oriented properly.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:10 pm

DarthWeber wrote: I agree 100% completely with Mr. Tucker.......for now. :D

Remove the spark plugs, rocker assemblies and pushrods when you crank it for oil pressure. Also make sure your fuel magnets are oriented properly.

fuel magnets?

I know it's recommended to remove one set of springs.. does it have that much of an impact if you break it in with both sets in place?

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:27 pm

Well, if you have tool steel lifters it doesn't matter a bit. With normal lifters the less spring pressure during breakin, the better. The engine is only reving to about 2500 and there is no load on the engine. You just need to keep the lifter faces and cam lobes in friendly contact with each other to work harden them nicely.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:32 pm

DarthWeber wrote: Well, if you have tool steel lifters it doesn't matter a bit. With normal lifters the less spring pressure during breakin, the better. The engine is only reving to about 2500 and there is no load on the engine. You just need to keep the lifter faces and cam lobes in friendly contact with each other to work harden them nicely.

are we talking significant damage? I have brand new engle cam and lifters and brand new Brothers heads.. are we talking about shaving 10k miles off of engine life? or more than that? If I can still get at least 40k before a tear down, I'm ok with it, but I don't want to grenade a new build ya know?

It's been 4 years since I've been able to drive my bug.. I want it back, and in less than two years I'll probably be deploying again so I don't want to lose more time/money having someone else swap my springs or buying a spring compressor..

I know I know, bad attitude, do it right or don't do it.. but like I said, i'm anxious to drive it again and if I can just get a year or so out of it, I'll be thrilled..

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:39 pm

Ok, just how does one heat cycle the inner springs? How often should one do such a procedure without appearing pushy??

As for the magnets I'm using hi-tensile duct tape,

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:49 pm

Duct tape can interfere with the flux field of the magnets and should never be used! Gorilla tape can be used in a pinch. Also never use a 009 with magnets as it will cause a flat spot at WOT...

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:04 pm

i hate you guys soo much right now... hahaha! i shoulda known what fuel magnets were... I vaguely recall seeing them on the shelf when I bought my muffler bearings.. :roll: :lol: :lol:

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:08 pm

tattooed_pariah wrote:
are we talking significant damage? Could be. I'm sure you've seen pictures posted of lifter damage by guys who's engines didn't make it through break-in. Engine break in is a touchy subject. There are many ways to do it and I'm sure you'll hear many opinions on it. Matching cam and lifters from the same manufacturer goes a long way to insuring a good break in. I see you have at least an Engle cam there. Engle, in their own break in directions, recommends using lighter spring pressure, taking out the inner spring on a set of duals.

I'm not positive but I think you might be able to rent a spring compressor from AC.Net. Removing your inner valve springs isn't that difficult and it's something I would definitely recommend.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:19 pm

I have seen the lifters and cam grenade in 3 minutes if they are mismatched.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:40 pm

DarthWeber wrote: tattooed_pariah wrote:
are we talking significant damage? I'm not positive but I think you might be able to rent a spring compressor from AC.Net. Removing your inner valve springs isn't that difficult and it's something I would definitely recommend.

yeah, $20 rental, but I'm not a big fan of renting things, if I have to use it once, odds are I'll use it again so I'd wind up buying it (looks like they're available for sale again now.. been a while since I'd seen that..)

also, the cam and lifters are both stamped Engle and came in bright yellow engle boxes.. might be some kinda chinese crap, but it's what they are advertising as matched sets these days..

edit: valvespring tool on it's way... along with the oil claw so I can stop zip tying my external cooler lines to crap under the car.. :P

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:01 pm

I wouldn't worry about your Engle parts. The cam blank is Chinese, can't avoid that, but it's still ground here as are the lifters if I'm not mistaken.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:07 pm

DarthWeber wrote: I wouldn't worry about your Engle parts. The cam blank is Chinese, can't avoid that, but it's still ground here as are the lifters if I'm not mistaken.

you mean you wouldn't worry as in, "break them in with dual springs" or you wouldn't worry as in "single spring break in, then follow the hardening procedure that so far no one has outlined for the inners and run it like that after?

sorry, I've been threadjacking a lot lately, but that's cause I'm only smart enough to know i'm an idiot and people have been starting topics i'm curious about too..

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:15 pm

Given the wide range of cam and lifter issues that some have experienced, it's difficult to say for sure what the best way to break in an engine would be.

For myself, I've always done the break-in with dual springs and never experienced any issues. I don't bother removing the rocker arms or the spark plugs either. I think it was Mark Herbert who said something similar years ago, as well...just make sure you develop oil pressure with the coil lead grounded first. I use a zinc coating on the lobes and lifter tops, plus a zinc oil supplement and always synthetic oil.
to each his own I guess...I think we sometimes beat this issue to death with worry.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:18 pm

neil68 wrote: Given the wide range of cam and lifter issues that some have experienced, it's difficult to say for sure what the best way to break in an engine would be.

For myself, I've always done the break-in with dual springs and never experienced any issues. I don't bother removing the rocker arms or the spark plugs either. I think it was Mark Herbert who said something similar years ago, as well...just make sure you develop oil pressure with the coil lead grounded first. I use a zinc coating on the lobes and lifter tops, plus a zinc oil supplement and always synthetic oil.
to each his own I guess...I think we sometimes beat this issue to death with worry.

i concur, but others have done this more than me (this is my first hands on rebuild), so I at least listen to advice even if I don't always take it :)

I did coat the lifters and lobes with the red grease stuff that Engle packaged with the cam.

I remember hearing somewhere too that (this may be REALLY wrong, so don't kill me for it, I got it from someone else..) if you break in a cam at low speeds, you'll basically spend the first few hundred miles RE breaking it in.. no one drives at low RPMs, run it low for a few minutes, then give it some revs so everything seats properly.. course, that may have been advice for my Dodge when I bought it, "break it in how you intend to drive it" I get things confused if I don't write em down..

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:02 pm

I think this is true, there is definitely no benefit to running exactly X rpm, you probably better off to vary the rpm some.
I just try to stay in the lower two thirds of the engines rpm range at first

If you want to get complex about it, one aspect is temperature. The faster you are spinning it the hotter it will get. For break-in you would not want it too cold or too hot.
What speed will give the optimum surface temperatures for the parts and springs and oil you are using???? WHO KNOWS I'm sure it varies.

Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:01 pm

heat cycle+ cold, hot cold hot cold. just put the inners in adjust the valves & get it hot,not over heat!!! & let it cool compleatly do this a few times before going on a bonzi run.and dont forget to change theoil&filter a few times.
can lifters die fast?? YES.
if you have a stock vw cam, go and get it...... do you have it?? ok look at it,now look at the lobes.they have a chamfer around them on both sides dont they?? yes they do.and no sharp edges either do they?? no. now go get an aftermarket cam......... got it? good look at it, see the chanfer on it???? what??? no chamfer??? sharp edges??? tapered lobe,raidusted lifters=what??? ride on the side of the lobe where the sharp edges are.yes in theroy the taper on the lifter & the cam should match .but who made what when with what standards as far as taper??? some .001 some .002 some more. so what do you do to make it last longer??? deburr the cam&lifter, a slight chamfer of the cam lobes,and a slight chamfer of the lifter od&make sure there isant any nicks or burrs(spurrs for the basketball guys) on the lifter face. like everything else make it as good as possiable before assembly and it will last longer.....unless you effit up.

Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:35 am

polish lift face or not?

i was suprised at the chamfer of a stock cam, will take a pic when i'm next home!

Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:14 am

Like Neil, I break my cams in with dual springs in place. We do it on other flat tappet motors all the time at work so why should our motors be any different.

I will prefix this by saying if you are running K-motion K-800s or an all out race spring I would only use one spring. My new motor is only going to be broken in with one spring and then pull the heads and put the inners back in.....

brad