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Tue May 01, 2012 9:44 am

I come at this issue as a 20 year journeyman auto technician.

I have driven countless cars that had no dampening left in the shocks. They rode horrible, didn't stop as fast as they shold have and wandered all over the roads.

I'm sure there are guys who will tell you their cars ride great. Maybe in their minds they do, but they don't and in a panic situation their cars will put theirs or someone elses life in danger becasue the suspension doesn;t work propperly.

Yes there are other means of dampening springs, BUT they all invole some sort of shock absorber, wether it be a lever style shock or other.

Having tight binding suspension bushings to take the bounce out of the front end is not the correct way of doing this. It might work for a while but tight binding parts wear out and then the car doesn't act the same and it becomes unpredictable.

As I've said before, if major car manufacturers could save $100-1000 on each car they build do you really think we would still be using shocks and struts after 100 years of the automobile?

I also come at this as someone who has raced an ACVW for 18 years. I have done everyhting imaginable to a VW suspension to get it to handle. I personally know what affects running soft shocks, stiff shocks, no sway bars, big sway bars and small swaybars has on a car. I have also probably fooled with the torsion bars and front leaves more than any of you can imagine. I have done ALL of this on BOTH standard and narrowed (3 &4") beams.

SO call me an idiot and asshole and tell me I'm full of shit, I don't care. I KNOW what works and what doesn't. I've tried it all EXCEPT not running shocks. To me that isn't even an option.

brad

Tue May 01, 2012 9:57 am

X2 - no, no, X20!

Tue May 01, 2012 9:59 am

smithers wrote: I have a 8" narrowed beam with shocks. Narrowed the gas tank and offset the towers, cut out the body, and made new lower arms. Done by KCW John said he would not do another one? SO you can have the best of both sides you just have put put more effort into it.

8"? Why not just ride a motorcycle :)

Tue May 01, 2012 10:06 am

wompninja wrote: smithers wrote: I have a 8" narrowed beam with shocks. Narrowed the gas tank and offset the towers, cut out the body, and made new lower arms. Done by KCW John said he would not do another one? SO you can have the best of both sides you just have put put more effort into it.

8"? Why not just ride a motorcycle :)

Or a motorhome? LOL. I never thought the RV/skateboard look was cool, or practical, but obviously tastes vary.

Tue May 01, 2012 11:01 am

wompninja wrote: 8"? Why not just ride a motorcycle :)
:lol: :lol:
You know, aside from that one acehole moron, this has been a very entertaining thread! :D

Tue May 01, 2012 11:26 am

You know, everyone is entitled to their opinion; it's just too bad not everyone looks at it that way. The one comment about turning the tubes to do the dampening caught my attention; can't really see that riding too smoothly, but I haven't ridden in it. All I can say is that for the longest time now every car manufacturer has been putting shocks in for a reason...

Tue May 01, 2012 12:22 pm

If calling out Bullshit makes me an "Acehole" so be it.

Anyone considering the 1930s design of the vw suspension as anything near optimal is completely delusional.

Other than that,

No shits given.

And, by the way, both GM and Volvo have dabbled in electrostatic dampening.

Tue May 01, 2012 1:27 pm

Quote: And, by the way, both GM and Volvo have dabbled in electrostatic dampening.

Electrostatic dampening is a far cry from binding up your suspension to reduce bounce because of no shocks :roll:

THAT is bullsh!t my friend

Tue May 01, 2012 1:33 pm

Also done on production vehicles. They were called friction shocks or friction dampeners. All opinions aside.

Tue May 01, 2012 2:02 pm

No, production vehicles never had friction damping in components that was not made for it. Period.

Tue May 01, 2012 2:11 pm

What about MGs? Oh wait, your statement isn't even relevant to what I said.

Tue May 01, 2012 2:16 pm

Ace wrote: Also done on production vehicles. They were called friction shocks or friction dampeners. All opinions aside.

Notice they are not called friction bushings or friction bearings? You just killed your entire argument against running a non dampened front end. Use the right parts for the job. The biggest thing in suspension is predictability so you don't find out at the wrong moment that your suspension is less than optimal. If you can't predict what the car will do under certain circumstances how can you safely drive???????? That's what it all comes down to SAFETY.

BTW my buggy has only 2 inches of suspension travel. Shock DO make a huge difference in how it handles both on the road and on the track.

brad

Tue May 01, 2012 4:58 pm

Both the leaf springs and replacing the roller bearings with bushings will add some friction damping. It is well known that leaf springs have a degree of this due to the friction between the leafs

The main problem with no shocks is often that the wheel bounces, a tire is bouncy and a spring is springy, so the weight of the wheel can get going just like a basket ball. That is what I found driving with no shocks on my ball joint bug.

But if using tires with sidewalls that are too stiff for a light car(like most are), and very strong springs(from narrowing), and add a degree of friction dampening(cheap bushings), and by golly maybe it won't bounce.

Tue May 01, 2012 5:05 pm

WHen you can prescribe a cause an effect to a part. Who cares what you call that part. Losing an arguement here on symantics. I dont think so.

People , believe what you want. If you are just slappin a narrowed beam in there, you're asking for problems. There can be a cause and effect for things you change in your front end. And, there are many aspects about your front end that can be modified. Each having a cause and effect. Some VERY unsafe.

Detailed information is not available in any one thread due to do some peoples own agendas and inabillity to conceptualize. You can tell them by their arguement, only consisting of only torch and pitchfork.

.

Tue May 01, 2012 5:12 pm

Ever driven a shifter cart? They handle like they are on rails! Turning and stopping! Oh and no shocks,
Ever driven a long travel rail on the street, Kinda scary, all over the place, dives incredible with brakes, they typically have the best shocks money can buy.
Point is the less real travel your suspension has the less damping is needed
Oh and I have driven both

Tue May 01, 2012 5:14 pm

If you have no suspension that is another thing entirely, the wheel is connected to the mass of the vehicle instead of a spring

If the wheel did not have mass it would eliminate the bounce problem

Tue May 01, 2012 5:22 pm

I think Modok nailed it (again). Shorter, stiffer sidewalls, increased spring rate through narrowing and more friction from urethane bushings could potentially create enough damping to make a car ride nicely.
Sheer dumb luck might be exactly what these people have stumbled onto.
I think the effect might start to fade as the bushings wear and start to lose their grip, but with the right amount of friction, I believe shocks might be unnecessary.

Tue May 01, 2012 5:22 pm

modok wrote: Both the leaf springs and replacing the roller bearings with bushings will add some friction damping. It is well known that leaf springs have a degree of this due to the friction between the leafs

The main problem with no shocks is often that the wheel bounces, a tire is bouncy and a spring is springy, so the weight of the wheel can get going just like a basket ball. That is what I found driving with no shocks on my ball joint bug.

But if using tires with sidewalls that are too stiff for a light car(like most are), and very strong springs(from narrowing), and add a degree of friction dampening(cheap bushings), and by golly maybe it won't bounce.

At last, someone that can conceptualize.

Now, take into account the torsions are pinned in the center. Therefore, you have 2 forces working on your front end. The one with the rotational force and the force of gravity those torsion arms and those urethane bushings. There is about two whole feet of material in there between the torsion arms and housing for resistance. When weight transfers to that wheel, the effect is that the resistance between the torsion arm and housing is increased. Just having that weight of the front end resting on those bushings does provide a considerable about of dampening due to the resistance with just the use of the urethane there and its reaction to weight, you actually have a progressive shock absorber that works in relation with the wheel's load. Therefore. is no boing boing boing going down the road.

Tue May 01, 2012 5:23 pm

So if you had 1/4 in suspension you still need the best shocks available? Don't get me wrong, I like suspension and my cars all have shocks( I am getting older and like a soft ride) But with minimal travel less damping is needed, dont you agree?
And with minimal travel you also get shitty ride, regardless of shocks,

Tue May 01, 2012 6:20 pm

Derek Cobb wrote: I think Modok nailed it (again). Shorter, stiffer sidewalls, increased spring rate through narrowing and more friction from urethane bushings could potentially create enough damping to make a car ride nicely.
Sheer dumb luck might be exactly what these people have stumbled onto.
I think the effect might start to fade as the bushings wear and start to lose their grip, but with the right amount of friction, I believe shocks might be unnecessary.

this line bears repeating.. Sheer dumb luck might be exactly what these people have stumbled onto.

Urethane bushings are terrible for drag race use... too much friction, they don't allow the front end to drop freely. For a front shockless hoodride rod, could get lucky and sorta work, I guess, I've seen guys sort of get away with some pretty stupid looking stuff that they claimed 'no problem at all!' Ever see a guy flip his front trailing arms around so they face forward, gaining 10" of wheel base and poor man's '32 VW rat rod look? Yep, I've seen it. The guy told me it was no problem :roll:

I was following a guy who was driving a beat up old 1978 or so Ford Mustang II on the freeway this morning. The car Mustang lovers wish had never been built, a Pinto with a Mustang badge is what I used to call them. Anyhow, this POS either blow out shocks on all 4 corners, or they were all missing. At 70mph, this thing looked as graceful as a 400lb fat lady in a foot race! every little transition in the road surface had this thing undulating, pitching and yawing like dingy bobbing around on the ocean waves... whoa it was scary to watch! I would not have wanted to be behind him if he had to make an emergency stop.