TheSamba.com :: View topic - Annealing copper on exhaust manifold rings

Fri May 04, 2012 9:44 am

Mr. Atwell suggests annealing the copper rings before installing them:
Use an infrared gun to measure the surface temperature of the rings by moving the flame away for a moment and once you hit 900F

I don't have an infrared gun to measure the temperature, any suggestions as to how to tell when I get to 900? I guess I can try over and over until it doesn't ring when tossed on the ground, however I don't want to damage the ring.

suggestions?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:46 am

it will turn colors. Heat gun at HF is inexpensive and useful in other places

Fri May 04, 2012 10:13 am

old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water.

Fri May 04, 2012 10:53 am

Mal evolent wrote: old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper.

Fri May 04, 2012 11:19 am

Drop them on the ground before and the noise it makes when it hits the ground is very metallic, after annealing them they just make a thud sound when dropped

Fri May 04, 2012 1:52 pm

I just don't buy that this needs to be done. I guess if the bore up in the heads is really bad it might be needed, but if everything is close to original spec it should not be necessary.

File the flanges flat with a big bastard file and then round the edges of the flange a bit with a smaller one and you should be set.

Fri May 04, 2012 2:28 pm

WyzeOwl wrote: Mal evolent wrote: old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper.

You're wrong. Heat it up red hot, drop it into a pan of water and you're ready to go. Drop one on the ground that isn't annealed and drop an annealed one, you'll hear the difference in the tone. I always do this when installing an exhaust and haven't had a leak yet.

If you do it on a concrete floor, once the concrete pops, it's hot enough, drop it in the water.

As for whether it's necessary, everything I have read says to do it. It takes 5 minutes and I've never had an exhaust leak at the head using this method. Little extra insurance never hurt anyone. Makes sense to me that a softer copper gasket would seal better.

Fri May 04, 2012 3:16 pm

VDubTech wrote: WyzeOwl wrote: Mal evolent wrote: old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper.

You're wrong. Heat it up red hot, drop it into a pan of water and you're ready to go. Drop one on the ground that isn't annealed and drop an annealed one, you'll hear the difference in the tone. I always do this when installing an exhaust and haven't had a leak yet.

If you do it on a concrete floor, once the concrete pops, it's hot enough, drop it in the water.

As for whether it's necessary, everything I have read says to do it. It takes 5 minutes and I've never had an exhaust leak at the head using this method. Little extra insurance never hurt anyone. Makes sense to me that a softer copper gasket would seal better.

don't drop it from too high, they will bend when they are soft. It is a super tip for anyone building a T4 engine. It was something I would not have guessed had not the old pros like Richard or VDubTech, BusDaddy etc pointed it out when I first came back to buses and bought a T4 bus.

Fri May 04, 2012 3:18 pm

SGKent wrote: don't drop it from too high, they will bend when they are soft.
Good point Steve, definitely worth mentioning.

Fri May 04, 2012 3:25 pm

Thanks guys, you are all awesome.
:)

Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:47 am

Are there any tips for removing the copper rings from the cylinder heads?

I have my heater boxes and exhaust off in order to file and even up the manifold mating surface but the old copper rings are remaining firmly in place. Seems like a pretty soft area to dig them out of with out causing a bit of damage.

Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:03 am

There's a few ways to go at it, pry bars like this can often get under the inside edge when the bar is placed across the port:

Or dinging it with a dull screwdriver or chisel across the middle of the straight sides of the oval can bend the ring enough to lift the rounded ends.

Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:09 am

Thanks for the good ideas to work with. Thanks busdaddy.