TheSamba.com Forums
 
  View original topic: new clutch now won't shift into gear Goto page 1, 2  Next
troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 1:35 pm

HI there,
Looks there are a few similar issues already posted on this but I am going to reach out anyway. Situation is this: pulled motor to fix an oil leak and decided to replace the clutch, had the flywheel re-surfaced and put everything back including the new clutch (the new clutch is a 200mm sachs sprung disc). Didn't replace anything else as I had put a new throwout and pilot bearing in a few years ago. So....essentially the only variables are the new clutch and the re-surfaced flywheel. As you can tell by the post heading I cannot shift into any gear, the vehicle was shifting great prior to this, I have also since checked and adjusted the cable so there is no freeplay in the pedal. I fear I'll need to pull the engine again but if anyone has a miracle cure I am all ears. THANKS!!!! ,

Eric&Barb Sat May 05, 2012 2:10 pm

Can not shift into gear with engine on?

Can not shift into gear with engine off??

Clutch pedal must have some play or throw out bearing will not last long.......

Got a hunch you need to adjust tighter the clutch cable.

troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 2:22 pm

It will shift with engine off, will not when running....so maybe back the cable off and give it some play? Right now the wing nut on the cable is almost all the way forward. thanks

Cusser Sat May 05, 2012 2:38 pm

did the new pressure plate match up like both had center rings, or both did not?

is disc in backwards?

did you correctly adjust the clutch cable?

troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 3:08 pm

the pressure plate and flywheel are what i had been using so they have a proven history. You mention the disc in properly...I guess there is that chance that it is in backwards but a very small chance. How do I know if the cable is adjusted properly? I started with a good 1.5" of pedal play when the issue started and have since adjusted to no pedal play.

Eric&Barb Sat May 05, 2012 3:20 pm

If clutch was too tight you would be able to shift gears with engine running, but clutch would slip.
It can be hard for a newbie to tell between the return spring of the clutch pedal and the added spring of the clutch TO arm, and the clutch itself, when adjusting for pedal play.

Clutch disc can only be installed one way or the PP will not bolt into place.

Have had clutch disc where the center section (that the transaxle input shaft goes through) is a bit too fat and would rub the inside of the TO bearing when the clutch pedal was pressed down. Wonder if in your case the clutch disc is being pushed up against the FW by the TO bearing when you try to disengage the clutch (pedal down)...

Did you make sure the clutch disc slid easily on the input shaft? Have heard of some bad splines in the CD which would not help.

miller0358 Sat May 05, 2012 4:26 pm

Try this. Put the car in first with the engine off. Push the clutch peddle down and start the car. If the car wants to move or buck or anything, your clutch isn't adjusted correct. Jeff

troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 5:31 pm

Thanks for all the input. Unfortunately I did not verify that the new clutch slid onto the spline. I did try starting the car in 1st and it lurched forward...I just don't see how that conclusively tells me the clutch isnt adjusted properly. I have installed quite a few vw engines and never had this experience. I guess I will try a few more adjustments with the cable to see if it gets me anywhere. I"ll post if I ever figure this out!!!!!

troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 5:43 pm

Could be my problem...I ordered the disk and did not read the description below...I have an aftermaket pressure plate which may not be compatible with the disk?????

"Saches has changed the design of this disc.Now this disc can only be used with 71-79 style pressure plates which do not have a center collar. WILL NOT WORK IN 67-70 APPLICATIONS".

miller0358 Sat May 05, 2012 6:07 pm

Actually cusser asked you that a few posts back. Jeff

troutbite Sat May 05, 2012 6:32 pm

Cusser, that went over my head...can you explain what's going on if that's the case? Thanks

Donnie strickland Sat May 05, 2012 7:45 pm

You're reusing your old pressure plate, correct?

Does your pressure plate have the collar in the center? If so, then according to the notice that came with your new clutch disc, it won't work with that style pressure plate.

candymustang66 Sun May 06, 2012 9:58 am

yet again, the 10000 post , i have the wrong clutch. (maybe)
yet again, no posted year, save 1968 to infinity. sorry they are all not the same. (for other brands too)
if the free play is right, the clutch is bad. simple.
too bad you didnt take photos of both ends , installing,. sorry....
i do this, so i can later see my frakups.... :evil:

1: mixing early and late throwouts with wrong PP, is not going to work.
2: not setting free play 1/2"
3: the clutch surface must be machined in 2 places, bottom and top and by the exact same amount.. netting same stock pressure. all MS know this.

the best answer in the clutch is here, he indexes by body and year.
bless bughaus.com for setting the best example there is.!!


http://www.bughaus.com/beetle36.htm

http://www.bughaus.com/beetle38.htm

This is very clear , these 2 pages, no ?

sorry yours is jammed up...... truly....

PS. btw , it is common to find wrong motor in you body and wrong tranny.
Top clue, here, never work any VW with out tranny or engine S/N.
but if you show full photo sets, of both, anyone here can tell you.
my car has a Karrman Ghia box. and guess what dont fit right.?
one of lifes , guessing games..
3 bowden tubes later.. and clutch cables.... ouch...... (labor of love)
i have ever permutation of em.




troutbite wrote: HI there,
Looks there are a few similar issues already posted on this but I am going to reach out anyway. Situation is this: pulled motor to fix an oil leak and decided to replace the clutch, had the flywheel re-surfaced and put everything back including the new clutch (the new clutch is a 200mm sachs sprung disc). Didn't replace anything else as I had put a new throwout and pilot bearing in a few years ago. So....essentially the only variables are the new clutch and the re-surfaced flywheel. As you can tell by the post heading I cannot shift into any gear, the vehicle was shifting great prior to this, I have also since checked and adjusted the cable so there is no freeplay in the pedal. I fear I'll need to pull the engine again but if anyone has a miracle cure I am all ears. THANKS!!!! ,

Autofuhrer Sun May 06, 2012 5:50 pm

troutbite wrote: Could be my problem...I ordered the disk and did not read the description below...I have an aftermaket pressure plate which may not be compatible with the disk?????

"Saches has changed the design of this disc.Now this disc can only be used with 71-79 style pressure plates which do not have a center collar. WILL NOT WORK IN 67-70 APPLICATIONS".

That is completely 100% incorrect information. Sachs made the change about 6 years ago to the sprung disc - I have never seen one not work with the 67-70 pressure plate with the collar.

candymustang66 Mon May 07, 2012 6:27 am

that is correct, its a wrong statement.
Sachs did not change it, they sell many discs, you bought the wrong year disc OR ? you bought the wrong disc for the wrong year engine and tranny.
the body year, don't mean SQUAT ! ZIP.

what collar. ?
the pressure plate front finger tip ring collar ( YES, THIS)
or the newer car T/O bearing collar. (really T/O guide)

there are other failures too.... .

lets see.
the HD crosshaft (bell throw out shaft) hits some PP rivets (SOME ARE LONGER)
mine misses by 1/6" ( yes, i took the measurements 5 times)

more.... check out wrong T/O , there are 3, see frame 65
wrong clips, there are 2
see frame 66
wrong PP , can hit the clips
see frame. 54

http://ac-vw.com/tranny-slide-show/html/image_54.html


safety wired
consider this simple trick (aircraft wire)

http://ac-vw.com/my-motor-build/html/image_82.html

candymustang66 Mon May 07, 2012 6:39 am

LET ME say, im so sorry , pulling a motor 2 times is no fun.
and this topic repeats 1000s of times here, just on the clutch alone. :?

there is even chapters in the old John Muir(rip) showing how this sucks.
yes, all cars evolve, and that is why in a real store, (pros) they
ask first , what is yor VIN.?

the vin on newer cars , will disclose midyear production changes
as well as the tag on car showing the actual build date, for those changes.

but on this car , you must rely on the 2 serial numbers
on on the motor and one on the tranny.
then an only then, can you get the right parts. (oops someone did the tranny mod on the early box... oh my)

best practice, is to replace all parts in the clutch never 1 part.
unless you like pain. (but some like it .... can i watch :twisted: )
is running a new $50 PP going to break the bank?
and never run china junk. like mfg> SOM Ting Wong.?
run brand names , yours is brand named.

alexvw Mon May 07, 2012 10:32 am

You say you adjusted the clutch pedal to no free play. Thats your problem . With no free play the clutch is not fully disengaging and the transmission is stuck in gear. Try adusting the pedal so there is 1/2 " of play in it like mentioned above

troutbite Tue May 08, 2012 6:53 pm

update on the issue: little more info as requested by the group...the car is a 71 standard but lots of aftermarket stuff such as a freeway flier tranny by rancho, lightweight flywheel with recent surfacing (don't know the brand), 3-prong flywheel with no center ring (keep in mind all this worked prior to the new clutch)

So...did more adjustments with the cable...0.5", 0.75" up to 2" of pedal freeplay all the way to no free play with all the same results, can't shift into any gear with the engine running. I called CIP (where I got the clutch) and the tech team was stumped. Chris at CIP recommended pulling the engine and sending in pictures of my set-up. So that's where I am at, got the engine back out awaiting a diagnosis. Problem makes no sense so when I get it resolved I'll let everyone know.

Cusser Tue May 08, 2012 7:51 pm

troutbite wrote: 3-prong flywheel with no center ring (keep in mind all this worked prior to the new clutch)

I think you mean 3-prong pressure plate. I use a 3-finger pressure plate with no center ring in my 1971 (1971 stock transmission) and it works fine.

ashman40 Wed May 09, 2012 3:36 am

troutbite wrote: had the flywheel re-surfaced and put everything back including the new clutch (the new clutch is a 200mm sachs sprung disc).
candymustang66 wrote: 3: the clutch surface must be machined in 2 places, bottom and top and by the exact same amount.. netting same stock pressure. all MS know this.
I think this could be your problem.
If the machine shop only resurfaced the face of the flywheel that the clutch disc rests against but did not resurface the lip where the pressure plate bolts to, the disc would sit deeper in the flywheel. The result is the fingers of the diaphram would extend out father than normal. They would contact the TO bearing sooner. The distance the TO bearing needs to travel before the clutch disengaged is increased. Sometimes so much so that the clutch never disengages.

As a test, you should be able to tighten the clutch lever/cable even further (even AFTER all the free play is gone) to the point where the clutch finally disengaged. The TO bearing will be in constant contact with the pressure plate so don't run it like this for too long our the bearing will wear out quickly. If you find this is the case, you have no real choice but to tear it all apart to check the step height of the flywheel. Unfortunately, I don't know what the spec is for this distance.



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group