TheSamba.com :: View topic

Mon May 21, 2012 10:51 am

I think I better start planning for a new clutch. I can hear the TO bearing when the pedal is depressed and engagement is not always the smoothest. The only problem is that I have no idea what kind of clutch is in there if that matters. Ill need some new tools to drop the engine and remove the flywheel if needed. The pedal pressure is light so I am wondering if it is a diaphragm style. Do the stock style clutches have heavier pedals?

Mon May 21, 2012 12:00 pm

MoPor wrote: I think I better start planning for a new clutch. I can hear the TO bearing when the pedal is depressed and engagement is not always the smoothest. The only problem is that I have no idea what kind of clutch is in there if that matters. Ill need some new tools to drop the engine and remove the flywheel if needed. The pedal pressure is light so I am wondering if it is a diaphragm style. Do the stock style clutches have heavier pedals?

Don't order any parts until you pull the engine and see what you got. People do all sorts of funky stuff with these cars, for all you know it might have a VW clutch in it...

Mon May 21, 2012 12:56 pm

You're right. I'll have to be careful figuring out what I've got once its apart. It takes a couple of weeks to get parts up here so hopefully it will last the summer.

Mon May 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Hey Matt, how goes? Did you try to adjust it? Unless the clips fall off the TO bearing or it blows up, you can usually baby a clutch pretty far.

If you're looking for those dreaded VW parts (haha), cip1.ca usually sends stuff in 2 days to your door.

And the best tool for dropping the engine is a 17 mm gear wrench :) But you have a lift so it should be no problems.

Mon May 21, 2012 3:55 pm

I've been diddling with the cable adjustment to get the free play right. I'm going to need one of those magnetic wrenches, flywheel locking tools and possibly one of those 36mm Zim's Torque Dudes for the gland nut.

Mon May 21, 2012 3:58 pm

Here ya go;

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7025

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7155

or if your compressor/impact is not super duty;

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7036

Usually an impact + 36mm works for me so I've never had to buy the torque multiplyer thingy :) (Don't even need the flywheel lock actually if the gun is strong enough).

Mon May 21, 2012 10:28 pm

Well, Sir, I should first assure you that a simple clutch job should not include removal of the gland bolt. If the pressure plate requires replacement, you can have a machine shop balance it separately, a practice to which I personally subscribe out of general principle.

If you have not pulled a 356 engine before, and are doing it single-handedly, the only special tool of value is a gizmo (or one of the clever make-do solutions) to hold the head of the top-right bellhouse bolt. After that, its just an exercise in balance and trajectory, preceded by thorough preparation and conducted with at least one good floor jack (background tunes optional.... and trust me; save the beer for when its out from under the car).

As a bonus, its a great opportunity to clean things up back/under there, replace the starter bushing, check the bushes on the throttle bell crank, and give the engine a good scrub. A clean engine is a happy engine.

Enjoy.

Tue May 22, 2012 6:06 am

The flywheel will need to be removed if it needs to be surfaced. A good machine shop can balance the pressure plate with your flywheel.

Tue May 22, 2012 7:20 am

I've always tossed the pressure plate as the work required to r&r doesn't warrant taking a change. Does anybody really reuse these? I see clutch kits at Zim's for $130-170 for disc,pp and bearing. Hopefully the flywheel face is okay and won't need resurfacing or replacing so I won't have to deal with the gland nut. The car has been converted somehow to 12v and I have no idea what shape the ring gear will be in either.

Tue May 22, 2012 7:46 pm

While you're at it, order a set of the special engine bolts that eliminate the need for the magnetic wrench that so often ends up attached to the car when reinstalling. Ab Tiedemann is the man and this is his Email

[email protected]

Tue May 22, 2012 9:16 pm

Thanks jp, Joel, for the tool suggestions. I've got a ton of tools but it seems every job calls for something new. :)

Tue May 22, 2012 10:46 pm

Well, here's another point of view:

I believe that resurfacing is vastly over-rated as a necessity in clutch/to brng replacement. Unless one has been chewing the face with rivets or chunks of metal, the normal wear texture will actually result in more surface contact area in a short time. While resurfacing lightens the flywheel, it also shortens its life unnecessarily.

Also, a decent pressure plate has quite a fair service life actually (barring regular abuse, of course). There is no good reason to replace one unless it actually fails, I think. I have seen pplates last over 150K mi. with no hint of fatigue.

As for balancing, I would note this:

When one balances in assemblies, they are married for life and replacement of any single element will require re-balancing the entire assembly. So if your crank was balanced to the flywheel to the pressure plate, re-balancing to the flywheel only is just as likely to induce an imbalance in the assembly. At least if you balance the pp separately, you will not add to any imbalance caused by the loss of the original member of the balanced assembly.

If only the crank and flywheel were balanced together originally, balancing the pp to the flywheel only will induce an imbalance. But not if the pp is balanced separately.

There is a school of thought that believes that each element of the drive assembly should be balanced independently, thus assuring easy refurbishment/replacement of any of the elements which must only be in balance themselves.

Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:31 pm

Hi Matt,

I just went through all this with our '58 Cab. Here is some stuff from all that.

I purchased a Spring clutch "kit" from Stoddard that had the clutch, pressure plate and the TO bearing before I started. I wouldn't suggest that actually. The pressure plate the comes in the kit is not the spring type and when we got it in, it shuddered quite a bit. We had to pull the engine back out and replace it with the more expensive springed plate.

Also, I got the spring clutch and not the Hasserman or diaphragm type (180mm). It was what was in there and seems to work really well. If you do install the diaphragm than you will need to adjust the clutch petal stop so you don't over extend the tines.

We did pull the flywheel and have it balanced along with the clutch. That made a big difference on how smooth the engine runs up. If you do, you will want to check your end play and may need to replace the flat space to get the correct crank play. You will of course need a new seal (Viton) which is best installed with that cool press that screws into the end of the crank. There is a little lip around the inside edge of the new seals that will need to be removed. Leave the seal a little proud (just a tad) to allow oil behind it. I also replaced the gland bolt (nut) because of the bearing in the center. The new one came from Competition Engineering. Nice piece with a good bronze bearing - not the roller type. The little clamps that come with the clutch are great to help keep it compressed when you mount it to the flywheel. On mine, the alignment tabs on the back of the clutch needed to be trimmed just a tad to fit into the flywheel without binding. Oh, we did have the flywheel re-surfaced, but it is different than the VW depth so the shop needs to know (about) that.

Gosh, what else... The adjustment is a bit of a pain and hard to get to. I believe you can add that large wing-nut that VWs have, but I haven't tried that. If the generator bolt is a pain, put a small hose clamp around the head and that will contact the housing and keep the bolt from spinning when you get the engine installed.

Oh, check your tansaxle mounts while you are at it. Now is the time to replace them is they are at all soft. Easy to do, but the parts are a tad pricey. Make sure the bolts go back the same way or the engine won't go in. Um, what else... If you nee any photos I have a bunch...

Good luck with it,

Franny

Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:52 pm

Hi Franny,
Welcome! Good to hear from you and I look forward to your helpful posts.
Regards,
Jon

Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:48 pm

Welcome Franny and Jon! I did read your clutch post on the other forum Franny. I have upgraded Borg and beck clutches to diaphragm type successfully. However I thing the stock clutch should be just fine too.

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:07 pm

Great Matt.

We have almost a season on the new clutch and it is really working well. I had gotten in the habit of putting the car into neutral at every stop light. I don't worry about that anymore!

One system at a time, huh?

Good luck with your project!

Franny

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:54 pm

Franny
Assume you are aware of this, but you should always be in neutral at stop to prevent premature wear of rear main thrust bearing, which controls crank end play(along with the shims).

Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:50 pm

Yeah, that is a bit of a variable thing for me... If the light looks like we'll be there for a bit I'll be in neutral. If I'm at the end of the line, probably not. Also, it is much easier to get into first (especially when cold) if the car is moving a tad. It can be safer to be in gear so you can get out of the way quickly if need be. So, for me, it is a value judgement. The TO bearing seems to wear out about the same time as the clutch for me, and there is the pressure on the TO bearing fork. Also, the spacer as you mentioned. On our car I believe the spacer was original and reasonably worn, but that is with 100K miles so it was due to be replaced.

Yeah, lots of factors. With all the rear ending I have seen lately, I'm a bit paranoid to sit dead in a line of cars. Just me. It is really nice now to have the option either way without the moan I used to hear. The TO bearing was free, but really dry. It was the bushing in the gland bolt (nut) that was really dry. So yet another reason to have everything spinning all together.

Franny

Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:45 pm

FrannyB wrote: I'm a bit paranoid to sit dead in a line of cars.
Franny, I feel the same way. My practice is to always leave at least 10 ft. of space ahead of me when stopped in a line at a light or signal and keep a close watch in my rear view mirror. If I'm only stopped for less than a minute or two I keep it in first. Longer I'll go in to neutral, but I really watch what's going on behind me.

There are just too many people on the road who simply don't pay attention to their driving!