TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1700 head valve job, intake guide weirdness

Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 am

Hey, all... I recently picked up a '72 deluxe that needed some work on the right head as both intake valves were stuck open from having sat for so long. Good news is valves are ok, but it needs new guides. Here's where I'm running into some weirdness. The intake guides that the guy at the machine shop pulled out of the head measured with an outside diameter of 12.05mm, however the stock replacement guides (part #021101401A) have an outside diameter 13.05mm. I can't find a 12.05mm OD valve guide to save my life. Any ideas why what came out of the head wouldn't match what I need to put back into it? The stock replacement guides at 13.05mm are too large to go back in, so he'll likely have to bore those holes out a bit... is that my only option? I'm fairly handy with most vw repair stuff, but I'm not quite there yet with engines/heads, so this has me scratching my head a bit (pardon the pun). Any feedback or thoughts would be appreciated... thanks!

Tue May 22, 2012 4:43 pm

A little more info on your engine would helps. Is it a Type 4? Are the heads VW ones or some aftermarket ones?

Another option would be to have the exterior dimension of the guides turned down.

Tue May 22, 2012 5:10 pm

And please don't let another Machinest ruin a rebuildable head.

Intake valve guide should be 021 101 403 A
and are available .
I have one in my hand thats 11.92 mm OD

As Wildthing said it's much easier to turn a guide down than to
have someone screw up the valve guide bores.

POST the complete cylinder head part # as found in the valve cover
area. Shoud be 021 101 371 and a letter J or H

Fri May 25, 2012 10:38 am

Thanks for your input, guys... finally figured out that though the case is stock (at least it's the correct CB code for the year of the bus), someone in the past had slapped a pair of 1975 Porsche 914 heads on it which came stock with smaller intake valve guides because they were fuel injected. I'm back on the right track now and have found the correct guides. Again, thanks for your help!

Fri May 25, 2012 10:52 am

No expert here, but this is what I would have thought: Engines with sodium filled exhaust valves would have had larger exhaust valve guides. Would have thought all the intake ones would have been the same across the board.

Fri May 25, 2012 1:56 pm

So then its not a 1700 engine as there aren't any 1.7L 1975 914 heads. Is it now a 1800?

Fri May 25, 2012 2:36 pm

Bleyseng wrote: So then its not a 1700 engine as there aren't any 1.7L 1975 914 heads. Is it now a 1800?

How would changing heads turn it in to an 1800???

Fri May 25, 2012 3:12 pm

Dougy Dee wrote: Bleyseng wrote: So then its not a 1700 engine as there aren't any 1.7L 1975 914 heads. Is it now a 1800?

How would changing heads turn it in to an 1800???

'75 914 only came in 1.8L and 2.0L. Those heads have a larger cylinder register to fit the 93-94mm 1.8/2.0 P/Cs and do not fit the smaller 1.7 90mm P/C.

To use those heads would mean it has the 1800 cylinders since they are interchangable with the 1700 bottom end. This would make it an 1800 that you couldn't just slap 1700 heads back on.

Fri May 25, 2012 3:30 pm

Eric Schumacher wrote: Thanks for your input, guys... finally figured out that though the case is stock (at least it's the correct CB code for the year of the bus), someone in the past had slapped a pair of 1975 Porsche 914 heads on it which came stock with smaller intake valve guides because they were fuel injected. I'm back on the right track now and have found the correct guides. Again, thanks for your help!

Are there 3 or 4 studs to hold the intake manifolds?

Fri May 25, 2012 3:57 pm

Chris_ 914..We may have to wait another 8 years for a reply from
Eric Schumacher. :roll: As that was the last time he posted here
in the 411/412 forum.

I too was wondering if he had a set of 039 heads as well.

I still have 1.7.1.8.&2.0 valve guides and wanted to tell him
that the Standard valve guides and Oversize were easily found
as You probably already knew.

Fri May 25, 2012 4:18 pm

Dougy Dee wrote: Bleyseng wrote: So then its not a 1700 engine as there aren't any 1.7L 1975 914 heads. Is it now a 1800?

How would changing heads turn it in to an 1800???
Not just the heads, also the pistons and cylinders, a bolt on job if you have the right parts.

Sat May 26, 2012 11:05 am

I'll have to take a closer look at the pistons & cylinders... both heads are matched 021101371Q heads from a 1975 Porsche 914. If you guys are saying they wouldn't bolt on to stock p/c, then it's likely an 1800 now. I bought this as a bit of a basket case... previous owner knew little to nothing about it's history as he had purchased it at an auction at a salvage yard about 15 years ago. He drove it home, parked it in the garage with grand plans (as so many of these stories start out.) He chemical stripped the body, repaired all the rust he could find and re-sprayed it. That's the last thing he did, probably 12 years ago now. He'd start it up and let it idle every so often, but the most recent time he tried, it wouldn't start. Come to find 1 and 2 intake valves were stuck open. That's the condition I bought it in, so I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I've got. Head job on the right, and possibly the left too... we'll see. I did do a compression test and got 125lbs in both 3 and 4, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed we're ok there. It needs a clutch (disc is probably stuck to the plate from having sat so long) and it needed misc other things, which I've already attended to like shocks, brake work, CV boots, etc... I'm having the clutch done in a few weeks, and I'm having the fuel tank cleaned and/or replaced at the same time depending on the condition they find it in. Hope to be driving it mid-june when we return from a short vacation!

Sat May 26, 2012 11:17 am

For those interested, here are a few pictures of what I bought:

Sat May 26, 2012 11:46 am

Eric,Thanks for clearing up the mystery for us

You will love the q Heads from the 1.7 914 the have great flow and torque
when used on a bus.
I have used them on a couple of builds and with the extra material in the
exhaust area side of the castings should last you along time.

Sat May 26, 2012 11:51 am

yes, the Q heads are nice esp with 90mm domed pistons in the 914 82hp engine. Got one sitting in the garage needing a home.

Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:12 pm

Bleyseng wrote: yes, the Q heads are nice esp with 90mm domed pistons in the 914 82hp engine. Got one sitting in the garage needing a home.

OK! I am facing a pooped 1.7 in my '72 and have found '73 914 or 411 engine that is reportedly (and seems) in good shape. It has the dome pistons.
I've heard various opinions on this engine's suitability in a bus:

a) Great (as above)
b) Not as much torque as the bus engine: meant to rev high in a one ton vehicle, not lug a two ton through the wind
c) Due to b), are prone to overheating
d) Use shims of X size to lower compression to remedy c) !

I want to keep using my carbs; converting to fuel injection is more than I want to take on.

Shims? No shims? Any other caveats?
Thanks,
Jim

Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:32 pm

You'll want to set the compression ratio for a bus (if you can with domed pistons) or swap in a set of dished, then you can mash that pedal with impunity on those long hills and not lose any sleep.

Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:17 pm

Quote: The intake guides that the guy at the machine shop pulled out of the head measured with an outside diameter of 12.05mm, however the stock replacement guides (part #021101401A) have an outside diameter 13.05mm.
12.05mm is the std size for all T4 intake guides and have an 8mm bore.
13.05mm is the std. size for all T4 ex guides except 2.0 914 which is 15.05mm.
All of the exhaust guides have a 9mm bore.

Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:54 pm

grandfatherjim wrote: Bleyseng wrote: yes, the Q heads are nice esp with 90mm domed pistons in the 914 82hp engine. Got one sitting in the garage needing a home.

OK! I am facing a pooped 1.7 in my '72 and have found '73 914 or 411 engine that is reportedly (and seems) in good shape. It has the dome pistons.
I've heard various opinions on this engine's suitability in a bus:

a) Great (as above)
b) Not as much torque as the bus engine: meant to rev high in a one ton vehicle, not lug a two ton through the wind
c) Due to b), are prone to overheating
d) Use shims of X size to lower compression to remedy c) !

I want to keep using my carbs; converting to fuel injection is more than I want to take on.

Shims? No shims? Any other caveats?
Thanks,
Jim

Leave the engine alone for now and try running high test and dropping the timing back to 27° BTDC with the centrifugal advance all in (27° BTDC @ 3500+ rpms with the hose(s) removed). Get yourself a head temperature sensor/gauge and learn what a preignition knock sounds like if you don't already. Especially if you are running the three rib gear box you should have few problems with the higher compression engine.

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:01 pm

Well, I will at least check and see if I'll need to lap the cylinders to the heads, so they'll come off - so if shims are a good idea, it'll be as easy to put them in as not.
I just went out and checked and I do have the distributor that has the limiting screw, so that could be handy (although it turned pretty easily, hmm let's see - no drive gear!). It's a 205P distributor, and an EA097xxxx case.
I have CHT sensors on my existing engine, though I never got so far as to get the actual gauges. I guess it's time.
Most of our trips are really highway cruises so I don't need to pull stumps, but would certainly like to get up a hill any faster than I do now.
Jim