TheSamba.com :: View topic - Crankshaft "Snout" Wobble on a New Engine, is Dad

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:23 am

I just bought a brand new aluminum case long block from a reputable shop here in Tucson , AZ. The first time my Dad and I put the engine all together and placed in my 1975 Super Beetle, the engine seized after 2 revolutions with the starter. We pulled the engine and took it back to the shop. The next day they told us the aluminum pulley must have been too big for the case and it locked up. They fixed it within a few hours and gave us back the engine. After a few more days of getting everything ready we go to start the engine again and it seizes a second time. This time we are so pissed we pull the pulley ourselves, my dad sticks a dial indicator on the crankshaft sticking out of the rear of the engine (I was told the “snout”) and proclaims there is .010” runout on the crankshaft and the whole engine needs to be rebuilt.

This time we drop the whole car off at the shop and yesterday they told me to come pick it up, the car is fine and all they put on it was a sand seal on the pulley to keep the problem from happening again.

So, who is right? Does the crankshaft snout with a .010” wobble mean the whole engine must be rebuilt or is this not a reliable indicator and I should trust the shop?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:28 am

Something aint right

Is it wobble or endplay? Either way its not good. Improper endplay will definitely stop the engine rotation because the shaft can float enough that crank weights and rods and other things rub against each other, thus stopping rotation abruptly. If it is a new engine and it has .010 endplay, the reputable shop let one get by them. Take it back and state youyr case. Max endplay is .006. A new engine should be around .003

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:31 am

It isn't end play, it's wobble. It is an up and down motion on the crankshaft "snout". It would make sense that this movement would tear up a pulley. We did check the end play and it is around .003" as best we could tell sitting on the bench.

Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:57 am

Evidently this shop put a bent crankshaft in the engine, which indicates extreme incompetence as engine builders
or assemblers. Now that the problem has been pointed out to them, their refusal to undertake the only possible
remedy of replacing the crankshaft, indicates a basic lack of honesty and integrity. You've been scammed, sorry to hear it.
This of course assumes that you are correct on your crank runout measurement, which is ten times the maximum amount
specified by VW. If you are quite sure of your results, how about letting other VW owners know the name of this
incompetent and dishonest shop, so they can avoin being scammed likewise?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:08 am

there are 2 checks,
end play (axial play ) front to end, is that THAT IT?
or was it radial play (aka : side play, wobble, side jog, )_ THAT?

if end play is .010, incompetence. (wrong front bearing. or never set with shims.)
if wobble is .010 , supreme gross incompetence.

be on guard. if they try to hide this problem you will not be happy
the wobble will kill that new sand seal fast , Id bet 10 miles.

the #4 bearing will not allow the crank to move here. (rear babbit bearing)
if the new case has no oil gallery THERE or the orifice there is blocked
common on some crap Southern made cases.
then it will starve and get far worse. (even faster)

what was it , side to side or end to end play ? be clear.

bad endplay will fail well after the warranty ends.
they know that....
dont post name until, you are sure of the measurments.
and use the correct terms...
radial or end play...

#4 bearing is .0074 max limit
rebuild spec, is .004 max.
the crank does not move that far. cept dry cranking.(dog tired motors)
if the crank is bent, all bets are off.
under pressure the crank is limited to .001 , most the time.
due to the pressure and straight crank. (test 1 on take down)

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:43 am

We placed a dial indicator on top of the crankshaft snout and spun the engine by hand. To be clear, if you looked at the crankshaft from directly over the car we placed the dial indicator directly down on that "rod" sticking out of the engine. To put it another way we placed the dial indicator exactly perpendicular to the ground.

We spun the engine in one direction until we hit the key then rotated the engine the other way until we hit the key again. It was then we noticed a .010" radial bend of the crankshaft snout.

My last engine had a bad problem with end play in which you could move the flywheel away from the engine case toward the front of the car by a 1/4". This is why I was replacing the old engine.

Hope this clears up my understanding of end play and wobble. Hope I don't come off as snide just really trying to figure out what kind of situation I am in.

Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:37 am

Just to be sure, is the consensus that a radial bend of the crankshaft snout grounds for rebuilding the whole engine?

If so, what is the proper way of measuring the bend? Originally we attached the magnetic base of the dial indicator on the generator body (only large piece of ferrous metal in the engine bay). When I rechecked my measurements is this a reasonable way of doing it?

After I do that, I'll man up and tell them they are crooks as well as post their names here. Thanks again for the help!

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:31 pm

If mr. "Country Jack" wrecked it , we jokingly call them JACkS.

he might have , hit it with a hammer and bent it.
or ran it with the bolt loose , it cocked and ment
or the key sheared (loose bolt)(the wood-ruff key) and this caused
it to cut the the sides.. make it look like its wobbling.
with mikes or caliper you can measure the snout for
roundness. if not round, its cut up.

you can remove the pulley, look at the snout end , crank the motor over
and look at that threaded end, to see if the treads do not wobble, if not, then
the snout is cut up. and not wobbling. Just one look and solved.
Disable spark for test.

all this is measured at rebuild time. seems yours was not.

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:50 pm

Is the consensus that if the engine seems to run fine then the whole crankshaft is probably not bent, just the snout is bent?

I couldn't tell exactly what candymustang66 was trying to tell me or who JACK is.? :|

Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:34 am

there is no consensuss for 3000 miles away (only tests methods)
rebuilding is a hand on, look and measure deal.

sorry, i could not articulate , the job of a machinist.
i could show you better, and for sure do it far better....

i can recommend great books too. on topic

Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:09 am

WhopperMilkBalls wrote: I couldn't tell exactly what candymustang66 was trying to tell me|

Don't feel bad. A lot of us find it hard to figure out what he's saying. :)

Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:13 am

id tried.
so bugger me. for trying.

i tried to tell him how to correctly measure a part.
its not rocket science

Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:21 am

I don't think I have seen this mentioned. Does the pulley wobble?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:15 am

correct !
does it move in the radial way (side to side top to bottom)
or axial way (end play, on crank) NO he sad.
or rock (unsaid, i think) its no VW pulley, either ,its now sand seal.

there are 3 ways.

and the look at the thread end, to determine which part is really bad.
takes more that 2 measurements. to find that out..

takes an Eagle eye !

Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:57 pm

WhopperMilkBalls wrote: Is the consensus that if the engine seems to run fine then the whole crankshaft is probably not bent, just the snout is bent?

I couldn't tell exactly what candymustang66 was trying to tell me or who JACK is.? :|

Maybe it has to do with your thread title? It says "Crankshaft "Snout" Wobble on a New Engine, is Dad". Now I've met a lot of crankshafts, but none of them were anyone's dad. Can I meet your crankshaft's son?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:26 pm

Come on guys, it is obvious from his title and first post what info he is after.
The portion of the crank that sticks out of the engine is bent and wobbles, this wobble causes 2 things to happen. One, the pulley wobbles. Up down sideways at the crank and up down sideways forward backwards at the belt groove.Secondly, if the outer crank hole in the case is not perfectly concentric with the crank the spiral groove on the pulley will touch the case at some point. The sand seal requires machining the case which gives the required clearance, The rubber on the seal can easily accomodate the .010 deflection but will wear quicker. Did they use a sand seal pulley, if not, the spiral groove will destroy the seal.
This is the wrong way to repair your new engine. You should return it for a full refund and buy a new one somewhere else.

As for needing a complete rebuild, probably not. Minimum required is a new crank and possibly new bearings. Also a complete inspection of the internals. I would insist on a new case that has not been modified for a sand seal, and proper pulley.

His title, we all know he ran out of space without realizing it.

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:34 pm

RocketA wrote: WhopperMilkBalls wrote: Is the consensus that if the engine seems to run fine then the whole crankshaft is probably not bent, just the snout is bent?

I couldn't tell exactly what candymustang66 was trying to tell me or who JACK is.? :|

Maybe it has to do with your thread title? It says "Crankshaft "Snout" Wobble on a New Engine, is Dad". Now I've met a lot of crankshafts, but none of them were anyone's dad. Can I meet your crankshaft's son?

I have never heard the term Country Jack aka "Jacks" but by reading further I take it to mean what we call "back yard mechanics" or "butchers". Someone that has no business trying to repair a car.
Candy is a very knowledgable individual but unfortunately a lot of times he omits punctuation and spell check making it hard to understand.

Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:36 pm

dan macmillan wrote: RocketA wrote: WhopperMilkBalls wrote: Is the consensus that if the engine seems to run fine then the whole crankshaft is probably not bent, just the snout is bent?

I couldn't tell exactly what candymustang66 was trying to tell me or who JACK is.? :|

Maybe it has to do with your thread title? It says "Crankshaft "Snout" Wobble on a New Engine, is Dad". Now I've met a lot of crankshafts, but none of them were anyone's dad. Can I meet your crankshaft's son?

I have never heard the term Country Jack aka "Jacks" but by reading further I take it to mean what we call "back yard mechanics" or "butchers". Someone that has no business trying to repair a car.
Candy is a very knowledgable individual but unfortunately a lot of times he omits punctuation and spell check making it hard to understand.
yeah, and he wants people to 'bugger' him.

Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:42 pm

Ive got a bent crank on the bench right now,it took out the case bore at the front bearing with a quickness..the assembler of that engine,like yours,didnt notice it which is damn near laughable,you're constantly turning and observing the crank during assembly..only thing besides an actual bend is a misgrind..either way your assembler is a hack..

Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:06 pm

Thanks for all the posts! I showed my dad the thread and he immediately knew what candymustang66 was saying and we remeasured the snout (he is a turbine mechanic so they must speak the same language). We confirmed that the snout is completely round without any high spots beyond .001". However it is definitely bent by .010". So we are going to go talk to the owner of the store. I am with dan macmillan, that said I should just get my money back and try again somewhere else. If the shop wont give me my money back or replace the crankshaft and engine case, I'll post the name of the shop here so others won't have to go through the ordeal I have.

I'll keep you guys updated.

To answer Dan's question they did put a sand seal pulley on it with the sand seal.