TheSamba.com :: View topic - 14" front discs

Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:35 pm

(first part trimmed from a post to type2.com in response to a query about disc options for a split)

I recently made the switch to front discs on my '66 (stock height, redux boxes, and 14" wheels). There are basically 4 choices to fit 14" wheels - Nate @ wagenswest's Babystangs, CSP's kit, SACO's kit, and Russell @ oldspeed's kit.

There are currently no rear disc options for redux box axles.

I've been running the babystang's since mid october (14th, to be exact) and daily driving the bus most of the time since. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...start=9861

Nate uses mildly modified vented mustang 2 discs with integrated hub, and wilwood 4 piston calipers + a set of wide 5 adaptors. Continues to use stock lug bolts, and increases track width by ~~1/4" per side (my personal measurement - Nate claimed zero change) - ~$1065 shipped

CSP uses solid disc of their own mfr with integrated wide 5 hub, pontiac lemans single piston calipers. decreases track width by ~~8mm per side, switches to studs and lug nuts ~$1400 + shipping

Saco's kit uses a custom wide 5 hub w/ bolt on solid drilled rotor and 4 piston wilwood knockoff caliper - there were to many complaints on these for me to be interested (and I don't believe a drilled rotor belongs on a stock street bus, either). also converts to stud/nut. unknown track change. ~900+shipping

Russell @ oldspeed's setup uses vented 944 rotors (turned down to fit a 14" wheel), 944 front hub (I believe), wide 5 adaptor, and willwood 4 piston caliper. russ claims no track change. also converts to stud/nut. ~$1500 delivered

I ruled out the saco kit due to the rotors and complaints (and really, if you're going to use a wilwood like caliper, why not use the real thing?) first.

The CSP kit I eventually ruled out for a few reasons: No replacement rotors available except directly from CSP - and they're not a common off the shelf piece. with 8.5x27" tires, I had -no- wiggle room to reduce track width. I just lightly rubbed the pass side at full left lock under power already. and, if I had a choice I'd prefer a vented rotor.

That left me tossing around Nate vs Russ - both rotors are commonly available, but both require minor machine work (which any local machine shop could reproduce when needed). both vented, both using (effectively) the same caliper and pads (and pads commonly available since wilwood has been making aftermarket calipers for a loooong time), and both requiring a wide 5 adaptor (from ford 5x4.5 or from porsche 5x130). Nate's kit let me continue using lug bolts....so it won.

For a master cyl I strongly recommend using a stock split bus 67 master (22mm bore). If your reservoir has a larger chamber on one side, use that side for the front brakes. Remove the residual valve for that circuit and remove the check valve (easy enough - but it wont go back! :) and reinstall.

I don't recommend using any of the disc brake masters - they have a larger piston bore, requiring more pedal effort. unless you're also going to add a power brake booster (which is custom fab work), in which case use the disc masters!

I swear I took better pictures of the -second- track width change measurements (measuring off of the tie rod mount was much more reliable - and really did result in the whel mounting surface moving out 1/4" on each side) but I can't find them. So guess not. There are some less accurate ones in the album (measuring off the upper link pin, which isn't as accurate since the relationship changes when the spindle turns..)

So enough discussion - on to the pictures! For the full set see: http://www.icantclick.org/gallery2/cars/buspics/babystang-brakes_001/?g2_page=1

The box - securely packaged!

inside:

Here's the rotor hub - inner lip machined to fit the VW seal. This would be all that's needed to fit a set of off the shelf rotors on later.

Gutting a residual valve (in this case, off an old core MC I had floating around):

There's actually room to move the wide 5 adapter closer - a lot of that 1/4" track width could be reduced by recessing the two pieces of the wide 5 adapter further - but
[img][/img]

it would mean needing to switch to studs instead of lugs bolts.... Also note for you guys with custom wheels! Take care that you studs don't hit!

A stupid gotcha here - really the only problem I had with the install. The bleeder is the little black piece, NOT the brass fitting it's screwed into....duh!

so don't do this:

caliper bracket:

installed rotor (bearings and caps included!):

and the finished product:

[edited to fix Nate's name! sigh! :)]

Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:59 pm

Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:49 am

epayne611 wrote: Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

It's a night and day difference. I've had my babystang kit on for about 7 months and love them. I have the older style caliper bracket on my kit and had to modify it to use with my flipped spindles.

Old version (you can see here how it hits the top of the king pin.

I needed to shave a little material off so it would clear.

I talked to Nate about this issue and he sent me a cad drawing of a "new" bracket design he was working on that took a different caliper he hoped would solve this problem. Nate was very eager to get my feedback and really wanted to improve the set-up. The bracket David posted above looks just like the one in the cad drawing Nate sent me, so I'm glad he got that into production.

Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:08 am

David Raistrick wrote: For a master cyl I strongly recommend using a stock split bus 67 master (22mm bore).

Thanks for the write up! Man, I would love to have those front brakes on my bus.

Is there any decent price for a 67 German MC? $280 from Wolfsburgwest is brutal!

Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:10 am

Great review! I was one of the guys who popped on the SACO kit and managed to install it with no directions whatsoever and had no idea about the residual pressure valve until about 1,000 miles in. Pure facepalm moment.

While I still get some wobble from them while stopping, I understand there are likely a few things I can do to help eliminate that...including using a softer pad.

Regardless, I'm really wishing I had known about or had waited for this kit. It looks great and I've heard good stuff about it.

Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:56 pm

epayne611 wrote: Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

I'd say they're approx the same as a well tuned set of stock (german shoes) front brakes. Much better than a worn out set with leaking wheel cyl and a busted spring. ;)

I don't think you're going to see a drastic improvement without a much larger disc - you could switch to a more aggressive pad, though - I haven't looked at what's out there for this caliper.

The major difference is that I don't have to adjust them to keep the pedal high, and I don't have to magically get four shoes adjusted into balance each time so it brakes straight and true when I need to stomp on them.

I'm not one who's found that stock brakes are inadequate - I can lock up all 4 at 70 as easily as 30.... I wish pedal effort were reduced, but that's going to need a booster. What I hated was the every 2k mile readjust.

They should also do a good bit better under heavy heat load if you're in the mountains, etc, too...and be a lot better when wet. ;)

I did realize one downside though - since the pedal stays high, heal toe is a bit more difficult. when the brake pedal is down at about half travel it's easy to heal the gas pedal!

Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:38 pm

Thank you for the write up. These are high on my list of must-have mods.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 am

David Raistrick wrote: epayne611 wrote: Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

I'd say they're approx the same as a well tuned set of stock (german shoes) front brakes.

Really? That seems disappointing :cry: IMO, that's a show stopper. I can deal with adjusting the drums. Thanks for being honest though. Some people would rave about how much better they brake just to justify the costs in their minds.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:13 am

Ragman wrote: David Raistrick wrote: epayne611 wrote: Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

I'd say they're approx the same as a well tuned set of stock (german shoes) front brakes.

Really? That seems disappointing :cry: IMO, that's a show stopper. I can deal with adjusting the drums. Thanks for being honest though. Some people would rave about how much better they brake just to justify the costs in their minds.

After I got my bus road worthy, I put about 400 miles on it with all new drum brake components all the way around. This was/is my first bus so I had never driven one before, but the brakes scared the crap out of me. Definitely not my first VW, so I'm familiar with their braking system and having them dialed in correctly, but this bus just still required a good bit of room to stop and I wasn't happy with it. My bug has CB performance disc brakes up front so I'm used to being able to stop timely if needed. I understand that with the weight difference and other factors, the bus with drums would never stop as quickly as my bug with discs, but it was just nowhere even close to what I was hoping for. I drive my bus anywhere it goes, so I do a few 500 or 1000 mile trips to/from shows each year (sometimes through the N. Georgia mountains) and travel hwy speeds and therefore wanted better braking, so I opted for this kit.

Still doesn't stop as fast as my bug, but for me, it was a big improvement over the drums.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:34 pm

Too bad they aren't available for 63 and earlier.... late splits only according to the website....

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:29 pm

fluxcap wrote: but the brakes scared the crap out of me. Definitely not my first VW, so I'm familiar with their braking system and having them dialed in correctly, but this bus just still required a good bit of room to stop and I wasn't happy with it.

familiar or not, I'd suggest you still had something wrong. IMO stock drums can absolutely stuff you under the dash (with modulation - you can also just lock them up...) if you're not wearing a seat belt or holding on.

OTOH, few people spend the money on real OE shoes - german shoes are nearly unobtainable now. IME the varga/brazilian/and no name after market shoes don't do the job the same. iirc the last two sets I bought (one I just replaced with the drums, which was soaked due to a cyl blowout after another "new" brake spring let go, the other set is still on the shelf for future consumption) were about $100 a set.

So please temper my "they're only a bit better than stock" comment with the fact that most people probably aren't really running stock front brakes anymore... ;)

If you want stock drum brakes that suck, come try my '60 1 ton international. ;-) That's one scary monster to stop in a hurry.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:41 pm

Great writeup on the stangs...

I know the Wagenswest guys pretty well. Do you mean "Nate?" or does he have someone named Wade working there, now?

Nate Curtis is the owner.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:47 pm

smitty24 wrote: I know the Wagenswest guys pretty well. Do you mean "Nate?" or does he have someone named Wade working there, now?

Nate Curtis is the owner.

Snicker. Yeah, Nate. Dunno why I keep mixing his name up whenever I type it.

Probably because of Wade (dropgates.com) - who's email address is various forms of wadeswagens@.... so my brain takes "wagens" and out comes "Wade". (wade has been a heavy fixture of the type2.com/vintagebus.com community for a long time - especially after he volunteered to build the original AIRS system way back in the day...)

Nate - sorry man. :)

Edited the original post to fix it...

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:13 pm

David Raistrick wrote: fluxcap wrote: but the brakes scared the crap out of me. Definitely not my first VW, so I'm familiar with their braking system and having them dialed in correctly, but this bus just still required a good bit of room to stop and I wasn't happy with it.

familiar or not, I'd suggest you still had something wrong. IMO stock drums can absolutely stuff you under the dash (with modulation - you can also just lock them up...) if you're not wearing a seat belt or holding on.

OTOH, few people spend the money on real OE shoes - german shoes are nearly unobtainable now. IME the varga/brazilian/and no name after market shoes don't do the job the same. iirc the last two sets I bought (one I just replaced with the drums, which was soaked due to a cyl blowout after another "new" brake spring let go, the other set is still on the shelf for future consumption) were about $100 a set.

So please temper my "they're only a bit better than stock" comment with the fact that most people probably aren't really running stock front brakes anymore... ;)

If you want stock drum brakes that suck, come try my '60 1 ton international. ;-) That's one scary monster to stop in a hurry.

You definitely got me on the fact that my drum setup did not have the highest quality shoes! :lol: I was sent the wrong ones when I did my brake order (not that I initially ordered high dollar ones) and ended up resorting to whatever brand O'reilly's could get me in a day. Perhaps it would have been much better with german shoes. It's also quite possible something was amiss in my set-up but I went through it like crazy for about a week (prepping for my first camping trip in the bus) and just never could get them working to my liking.

Either way, I'm happy with em, definitely saved my front end during a couple of panic stops on my trip to Bulli! 8)

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:17 pm

fluxcap wrote: It's also quite possible something was amiss in my set-up but I went through it like crazy for about a week (prepping for my first camping trip in the bus) and just never could get them working to my liking

That's definitely one of the major advantages to disc brakes - they're dead nuts simple. They either work or they don't. And at least for some calipers, there's a lot of different friction material choices so you can tune them to suite your tastes with a simple pad change.

Drums are actually pretty complicated - and our 4 piston front drum setup is a bit of a odd duck, too.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:29 pm

Its all good.

I am curious how his kit compares to CSP's?? That is one deterrent I have with CSP is the reason you stated= NO replacement part that is easy to obtain, unless straight from CSP. No one in the states would be able to get you parts, in an emergency. On the stangs, you could literally walk into a good parts store and pick up parts for far less, and quicker.

I appreciate your write up! Nate doesn't put a lot of instructions out there, with his parts. One thing Ive always had an issue with. Most of us figure it out, after we screw up a couple times! I am wanting to try his kit, when funds allow. Those of us with straight axled rear ends with small bug brakes, could really benefit. Ive noticed on my bug drum rears, the front stock bus brakes wear more since they are doing more of the braking, compensating for the rear.

Ive noticed that most people that complain about their stock bus brakes is that their drums are out of round, not adjusted properly, and have worn out springs, shoes, and cylinders. My bus has a full rebuilt braking system, but is still a bus full of weight. It stops nothing like my '63 ragtop with front disc kit. Buses will never stop like a bug. I think some folks buy disc kits thinking it will stop like a Carrera. Improvement over stock is all I look for, to justify price.

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:49 pm

smitty24 wrote: I think some folks buy disc kits thinking it will stop like a Carrera. Improvement over stock is all I look for, to justify price.

we could do that - but the switch to 18+" wheels is a bit of fun. ;)

there's only so much brake we can fit in a stock wheel!

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:46 pm

smitty24 wrote: I am curious how his kit compares to CSP's??

From a functionality standpoint, probably not a lot of difference between the various options.

They all run roughly the same diameter rotor - 9 1/4" for the babystang, ~~10" for oldspeed's kit - no idea for csp and saco - but you can't really get more than a 10" rotor in a 14" wheel and still fit a caliper. ;)

The CSP kit uses a single piston floating caliper design from a pontiac lemans (or so I've read). They state it's a 44.5mm bore -- http://www.csp-shop.de/technik/pdf/deeng/15462.pdf

The Wilwood powerlight caliper I got is a 4 piston (fixed, not floating - so it's got 2 pistons on each side) 3 inch bore - so 76.2mm combined - http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd.aspx?itemno=120-8729

Oldspeed (and the old caliper from wagenswest) at least once used a 1.75" bore wilwood - 44.45mm

So the CSP may apply more of the pedal force to the pad than the wilwood (and all 3 of the other options use a similar caliper). But then we have pad area to spread it to the disc - Pad area for the wilwood is 5 square inches - no idea for the CSP. The old dynalight that was used on the older bracket from wagenswest had a 6.36" area...

Then there's brake pad compound.... there are, it looks like, 7 possibilities from Wilwood to fit the caliper I got - http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsList.aspx?padtype=7912 - mine shipped with the BP-10 compound - http://www.wilwood.com/BrakePads/BrakePadsApp.aspx?compound=BP-10

So. um. well. ;) Who knows.

If someone feels they need to be able to lock up the fronts faster, (or they run loaded more often!) just switch pads...

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:49 pm

Alot of good info here. Someone has spent alot of time researching this :D

Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:54 pm

so David, you said you were NOT running the booster, correct? Just a standard dual circuit mc with residual valve removed? I can't remember what you said, or maybe it was a different poster.