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Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:08 pm

Not sure if something like this exists for vw's, but could easily be made using existing remote fire control units. After reading recent stories and understanding the history of this, it seems like an obvious evolution. I just need a volunteer to test it out.

Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:52 pm

No takers on the volunteer request. Remote extinguishers are fine but the real key here is the fuel line which passes near the exhaust manifold and the coil and the plug wires. It must be free of risks such as plastic fuel filters and fed by a line with some sort of fuel flow restriction pipe after it exits the fuel tank to prevent ten gallons of gas flowing onto a melted fuel filter and running down over the muffler in less than three minutes.

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:04 pm

Harleyelf wrote: No takers on the volunteer request. Remote extinguishers are fine but the real key here is the fuel line which passes near the exhaust manifold and the coil and the plug wires. It must be free of risks such as plastic fuel filters and fed by a line with some sort of fuel flow restriction pipe after it exits the fuel tank to prevent ten gallons of gas flowing onto a melted fuel filter and running down over the muffler in less than three minutes.

I completely understand, but considering the value of these rigs, and the small cost of a system like this, any fire suppression I think would help. It's just an idea, and I really wasn't looking for a volunteer. :wink:

Mon Dec 31, 2012 9:24 pm

if there are sufficient flames to melt a plastic fuel filter, I would think the actual fuel line wouldn't stand much of a chance...or are you talking about the fuel filter melting from the heat of the exhaust manifold?

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:01 pm

My idea would simply be to have a compact fire control system set up inside the engine compartment, there is plenty of room, and couldn't hurt.

A fire is detected...activate it. Save your bus.

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:26 pm

Harleyelf wrote: ... some sort of fuel flow restriction pipe after it exits the fuel tank to prevent ten gallons of gas flowing onto a melted fuel filter and running down over the muffler in less than three minutes.

Sort of off topic but clearly you have never tried to drain the tank through the tank outlet. :)

Whenever people start talking about fire suppression systems it makes me think of the urban legend of NASA trying to make a pen that writes in space.

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:53 pm

EverettB wrote: Harleyelf wrote: ... some sort of fuel flow restriction pipe after it exits the fuel tank to prevent ten gallons of gas flowing onto a melted fuel filter and running down over the muffler in less than three minutes.

Sort of off topic but clearly you have never tried to drain the tank through the tank outlet. :)

Whenever people start talking about fire suppression systems it makes me think of the urban legend of NASA trying to make a pen that writes in space.

I do agree that NASA is crazy.

I will try to work on a better example, while keeping cost/reliability/function in mind.

Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:55 pm

Vani11aGori11a wrote: My idea would simply be to have a compact fire control system set up inside the engine compartment, there is plenty of room, and couldn't hurt.

A fire is detected...activate it. Save your bus.

While it takes more than three minutes to drain the tank, the idea of shutting the fuel off is a good one.

So make sure you fuel tap is in working order. If you are concerned about fire, realise you can shut the fuel off simply with a stock VW fuel tap. Then the fire will only get about a cup or so of fuel to burn. Only whatever the carb holds plus what is in the line between the tap and carb. (Which is probably less than what is in the tank. )
You can install one in a later bus.

you can buy a new one here:
tap:
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211209021E

or rebuild kit: http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111209113A

and a new cable:
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111711501A

I installed a manual choke in a later bus once. Fuel reserve cable is same, but goes on the right side of the heater knob. Cut the new cable sleeve to length after installing it, pull the cable out as bit before cutting the sleeve to length.
This is what I did for a choke cable:
http://home.comcast.net/~sunrisebus/choke.html

Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:29 pm

How about this setup folks in the UK are using?

Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:55 am

Yeah, that's sweet. There are good fire suppression systems on the market.

I have indeed emptied my tank through the lower outlet, and it did take more than three minutes at room temperature; get it hot and watch it squirt!

I have also seen the charred wreckage of a bus which took less than ten minutes to be fully consumed. The guy who lit it up by not checking his firing order or installing an air cleaner told me the three minute figure. It may have been three times that long, but it was quick.

Fuel filters next to the coil are more likely to detach from their hose than to melt, but the result is just as catastrophic.

To take this issue seriously, I might install a shut-off valve by the tank connected to something which told it if the engine is moving or not. Maybe the oil pressure switch; there's enough fuel in the lines to start the motor.

Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:30 am

I like the idea of a button that I could push to stop a fire. Why would you not want that? And why not have the same system that turns on the fire extinguisher shut off the fuel at the tank? Just makes sense.
All I can see being the deter-ant is the cost. Most people who have spent big bucks on there buses, or who just love there buses, have taken the time to fix the common causes of fires and most likely regularly maintain those issues.

But, we all know when things go wrong it happens quickly. I guess you could put this in the same cost pile as insurance. But I think I would rather save it, than be squabbling over the value of an old burned out shell of a bus.

I'm in. any links to systems and projects with them installed?

Gordo.

Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:33 am

Search firetec on the ssvc forums. I think it's www.ssvc.org.uk These units are very common over there.

Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:11 pm

Flem (you Red Skelton fan, you), you are entirely correct. Adding a new system to an old design makes some purists hesitate, but with all the engine compartment fires we have witnessed, something must be done! A fuel shut-off that is only on when the engine is running and the fire extinguisher is not tripped is a great idea.

Putting the fuel tank right over the motor was a design oversight and a safety flaw.

Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:17 pm

bugs burn, as well...

Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:04 pm

dubstar wrote: bugs burn, as well...

just not as fierce.

Gordo.

Tue Jan 01, 2013 4:01 pm

Got home today and did a quick search and found this:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails4...._a_7c43139

Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:20 am

flemcadiddlehopper wrote: dubstar wrote: bugs burn, as well...

just not as fierce.

Gordo.

Sure they do - see below.

Once the interior starts on fire - it burns pretty fast. I know from experience. There's no feeling in the world like standing by and watching your toy burn. :cry:

Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:15 am

How about a anti siphon valve out of a boat.

And a halon automatic fire extinguisher

Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:28 am

The anti siphon valve won't work for this application (I think...) as it is designed to stop back flow from the carb on the boat (mounted up high) back to the gas tank (mounted low) while not operating.

Halon is an extremely dangerous chemical. It removes oxygen from the air when discharged to extinguish the fire. Breathe some in and your in trouble. edit - above not true - I was misinformed. I learned something new today - so it's a good day. Halon is safe, as long as you are not ozone.

I found this system with a quick google search - looks reasonable to install.

http://www.firetrace.com/english/applications/on-road-vehicles/?page=automobiles

I think it's the same (or similar) to the bay window engine bay picture above. It can be manually or automatically activated, and has some optional electronic sensors for temp, etc which could be useful in monitoring engine bay temps.

Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:18 pm

Our Hot Rod friends at Summit Racing can be useful:

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/fire-suppression-systems