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Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:41 pm

Guys,

Here is something that I have wondered about for a long time. I have reached a conclusion but am interested in any input---

There are S90 GTs that clearly were factory built as part of a group of cars...thought of in advance. The chassis numbers for these B and C cars are sequential. In addtion, there are a few cars (11 to be exact) with S90
motors and GT stuff like alu doors and lids, but with rather random chassis numbers. It seems these were not originally designed to be GTs but were "optioned up".

What do you think?

Steve Heinrichs

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 pm

Sounds like special orders by dealers or clients wanting to go racing with the same stuff as the factory, or just to have something different from the standard street cars. Just a guess... :wink:

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:30 pm

We'll need much more than my say-so, but I was under the impression that the sequential run happened early in the S-90 run....

Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:30 pm

Here's the deal:

After a couple of test related GTs with 1600S motors, there was a run of GTs from 110840-110861. Included within that were four with S90 motors; the rest had 4-cams.

For you nut case numbers people like me, here is a new fact:Numbers 110862-110879 were not used; no such numbered cars were made, at least by Porsche.

Later, there was a run of 20: 115370-115389. There were eight S90s within this group.

Similarly, there were groups of "C" GTs----all with 4-cams. There are four SC cars with GT options.

Steve Heinrichs

Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:37 am

Steve-
What about that one that popped up a few years ago, the SC with the Factory Rally option, don't know if it was ever proved or not.

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:50 am

Adam,

Not sure which car you mean. Anyway, that's the question here-----

Does "GT" include a car with a non-4-cam motor with GT type options?
There are 11 of these probably including the one you refer to.

(Now, there are a few GT test cars without 4-cams; I am not referring to those)

Steve Heinrichs

Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:08 pm

Steve,
Weren't most of these associated with an order from Carl Block's Transport Motors dealership in Oakland?
Alan

Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:24 pm

Alan,

The Block order was for Speedsters. Those are sorted. We have them all nailed down, spares and all. As to the Block cars, they did comewith pushrods---so oushrod GTs. And, the Cabrios are set---one GT and we know which it was.

The problem here is the coupes. My take is that Joel's explanation fits best. Not really GTs but, rather, pushrod cars with some/many GT items.

Steve

Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:38 pm

Is there any information on the factory records as to whom the cars were first sold to, or if these options were supplied as a package or ala carte ?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:04 pm

Yes, quite a bit. We know the dealers and the options. Brumos ordered some but so did others and different times. It will all be there.

None really looks like any kind of "package".

Steve

Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Steve,
So one car might have been equipped with an aluminum, louvered decklid, hood and doors, but not have the aluminum outer rims and plexi screens or annular brakes, while another might have the full monty and the next one another amalgam of GT bits ? Like mix and match options on a Buick or whatever from the same era ? That wouldn't be a surprise as I recall the client was always right if he wanted to go the tariff..... Think it still works that way .......... :wink:

Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:41 pm

Joel,

Indeed.

Now, we are going to list them as special "optioned up" cars. I think are very cool. Many are known. Just not GTs per se but maybe even more cool.

Steve

Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:17 pm

Mr.Heinrichs:

Then there is this:

When is a GT not a GT? When its a GS.

That is, the 4-cam itself is not what makes a GT. As with other manufacturers, a specific model may have more than one specific engine in the bay. Porsche themselves offer additional clue when you consider that one could have some normally powered 911s with a "Carrera", etc. pkg.

For me, it makes sense to call them "Pushrod GTs".

Just a thought.

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:56 am

ensys wrote: Mr.Heinrichs:

Then there is this:

When is a GT not a GT? When its a GS.

That is, the 4-cam itself is not what makes a GT. As with other manufacturers, a specific model may have more than one specific engine in the bay. Porsche themselves offer additional clue when you consider that one could have some normally powered 911s with a "Carrera", etc. pkg.

For me, it makes sense to call them "Pushrod GTs".

Just a thought.

The "Carrera" name when used on 911's really has nothing to do with the 356 series. Carrera was a marketing tool "Name" by then that Porsche first used on the 1973 911 Carrera RS models.

Certainly Porsche made a production series of 356 4-cam Carrera GT cars as well as a very limited number of Pushrod GT cars...but these Pushrod cars were not Carrera models. "Factory" purpose built Pushrod GT's were found in a small number of 1959 356A Speedster GT's and 1960 356B T5 S-90 GT's. After that, as Steve Heinrichs points out, a few regular model cars were ordered with equipment "options" to make a car into something upgraded because there was no GT model series to chose from.

-Michael Doyle-

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:28 am

CarreraGT wrote: ensys wrote: Mr.Heinrichs:

Then there is this:

When is a GT not a GT? When its a GS.

That is, the 4-cam itself is not what makes a GT. As with other manufacturers, a specific model may have more than one specific engine in the bay. Porsche themselves offer additional clue when you consider that one could have some normally powered 911s with a "Carrera", etc. pkg.

For me, it makes sense to call them "Pushrod GTs".

Just a thought.

The "Carrera" name when used on 911's really has nothing to do with the 356 series. Carrera was a marketing tool "Name" by then that Porsche first used on the 1973 911 Carrera RS models.

Certainly Porsche made a production series of 356 4-cam Carrera GT cars as well as a very limited number of Pushrod GT cars...but these Pushrod cars were not Carrera models. "Factory" purpose built Pushrod GT's were found in a small number of 1959 356A Speedster GT's and 1960 356B T5 S-90 GT's. After that, as Steve Heinrichs points out, a few regular model cars were ordered with equipment "options" to make a car into something upgraded because there was no GT model series to chose from.

-Michael Doyle-

And, as an aside, the 1959 356A pushrod GT Speedsters were ironically built from left over lightweight GT chassis...originally intended to be Carrera 4-cam GT's.

A question to Steve Heinrich's is: Could that have also been the case with the Factory T5B GT S-90's...might they have been additional GT chassis...or planned purpose built race cars?

-Michael Doyle-

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:17 pm

These cars have chassis numbers that seem not to relate to any specific order like the puhrod GT Speedsters. Not left over stuff when they had run out of 4-cams. Nothing special. Just regular cars with GT options.

Interestingly, there is another subtle distinction----as to the coupes we are sure about as GTs, we can tell, sometimes because the records say "lightened chassis" or other ways. But, for most all the GTs, the GT stuff is not mentioned on the kardex. That is, it was assumed. For these cars, where they are optioned up....the optional parts are listed.

Steve Heinrichs

Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:50 am

Steve,

As you know there is a factory document (for the A's but it probably also exists for the later cars) listing the specific elements of "GT" cars. In my eyes the difference between the purpose built cars and the "optioned" built cars would be the deletion of some of the aspects described in this list. Things I could think of are:

- Undercoating
- Sound deadening
- Deletion of one of the horns
- Interior materials
- etc.

JK

Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:44 pm

Joris,

Yep. And, different stuff as to the Bs.

The Bs and a few Cs are the ones that are tough to sort of but I think we have it handled.

Thanks for noting this aspect of A GTs.

Steve Heinrichs

Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:34 pm

TK6A5 wrote: Steve,

As you know there is a factory document (for the A's but it probably also exists for the later cars) listing the specific elements of "GT" cars. In my eyes the difference between the purpose built cars and the "optioned" built cars would be the deletion of some of the aspects described in this list. Things I could think of are:

- Undercoating
- Sound deadening
- Deletion of one of the horns
- Interior materials
- etc.

JK

And this difference of special "optioned equipment" cars - not series production GT's - doesn't make them into GT's...as the series was no longer. Albeit, the few that were built under special Customer/Dealership order are unique cars in their own way, as it was the Factory that constructed them...not later by ambitious privateers.

This also goes for a production pushrod model being later fit with a 4-cam motor by the Factory...that doesn't make it a real Carrera GS or GT as some private owners or brokers would like to try and make others believe.

-Michael Doyle-

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Mr.Doyle:

Perhaps I should have chosen my metaphor more carefully.

The point (which had nothing to do with use of the "Carrera" name in 911 production, but everything to do with the "Carrera Look" options then available) was that it doesn't seem far fetched to think that the Right Person/People could have had access to a GT spec 356 with the Super 90 engine.

Do I err in the belief that the Super 90 was, for a while anyway, intended to be a more production-friendly successor to the 4-cam? If not, is it not logical that after the serial run of racers (in full GT regalia), other respected customers would have access to the evolved GT?

Or do I misunderstand the question?