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Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:19 pm

I have a '69 SB with rear lap belts and front 3 point belts

Just saw this '69 on craigslist with 3 point belts front AND REAR? Did they come both ways? Is the one below a modification?

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:45 am

Bump, I'd like to know as well.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:30 pm

I'd guess modification, as I've never seen that or heard anyone mention it before now.
But what do I know. :roll:

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:35 pm

Given that they are retractable belts, I'd have to guess they were added on. However they look very cleanly done and I wouldn't mind a pair in the back of my square.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:23 pm

Not original but a nice retrofit.

Rear seat didn't really get 3 point belts until 1972 in Volvos - didn't catch on in the mainstream until the mid/late 80's, IIRC. Way after the Type 3 was gone.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:35 pm

Apparently they did, here a nice shot from an accessories catalog.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:16 pm

ALLWAGONS wrote: Apparently they did, here a nice shot from an accessories catalog.

Interesting...but they're not retractable. :wink:

Technically, rear seat 3 point belts have been around since the late 50's but didn't really make it into a production car (installed by the factory) until the Volvo.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:51 pm

ataraxia wrote: ALLWAGONS wrote: Apparently they did, here a nice shot from an accessories catalog.

Interesting...but they're not retractable. :wink:

Technically, rear seat 3 point belts have been around since the late 50's but didn't really make it into a production car (installed by the factory) until the Volvo.

Sure they did; Mercedes had them by 1963- but only in Euro cars. like VW, BMW, and every other maker out there, there really wasn't a seat belt installed at the factory till likely the late 1960s or early 1970s... they were optional. However, the W110/111 series Mercedes available beginning late 1959 for the 1960 model year were the first crash tested cars ever- and the first cars with crumple zones. They were also the first cars with aftermarket supplied 3 point belts designed by the factory specifically for these MB cars.

Another thing that was popular in Europe was the two point shoulder belt- a shoulder belt sans lap belt. It was actually somewhat safer than the lap belt alone. I'll bet that's actually what we are looking at in that brochure.

Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:31 pm

Tram wrote: Another thing that was popular in Europe was the two point shoulder belt- a shoulder belt sans lap belt. It was actually somewhat safer than the lap belt alone. I'll bet that's actually what we are looking at in that brochure.

I agree those are two point shoulder belts, common in Europe. My brother's Euro '67 had them. I read they are illegal (at least in the US) because they were found to be unsafe, causing the occupant to submarine under the belt causing back and knee injuries. We removed them (from the front of his bug) and put in regular lap belts.

...like here:

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:57 am

This has turned into a case of "MB fanboi" vs. "Volvo fan": :lol:

The dates I had in mind weren't 100% correct but 'close'...so I looked up the information.

FRONT SEATS:
The first car with a three-point belt was a Volvo PV 544 that was delivered to a dealer in Kristianstad on August 13, 1959.

1959: Volvo makes the 3-point seat belt standard. In Sweden.
1963: Volvo introduces 3-point belt in front as standard, in USA.

Before 1959, only two-point lap belts were available in automobiles; for the most part, the only people who regularly buckled up were race car drivers. The two-point belts strapped across the body, with a buckle placed over the abdomen, and in high-speed crashes had been known to cause serious internal injuries. In 1958, Volvo Car Corporation hired Bohlin, who had designed ejector seats for Saab fighter airplanes in the 1950s, to be the company’s first chief safety engineer. (A relative of Volvo CEO Gunnar Engelau had died in a car crash, which helped motivate the company to increase its safety measures.) Bohlin had worked with the more elaborate four-point harnesses in airplanes, and knew that system would be untenable in an automobile. In designing the new seat belt, he concentrated on providing a more effective method of protecting driver and passenger against the impact of the swift deceleration that occurred when a car crashed.

Within a year, Bohlin had developed the three-point seat belt, introduced in Volvo cars in 1959. The new belts secured both the upper and lower body; its straps joined at hip level and buckled into what Bohlin called “an immovable anchorage point” below the hip, so that they could hold the body safely in the event of a crash. According to Bohlin (as quoted by The New York Times in his 2002 obituary): “It was just a matter of finding a solution that was simple, effective and could be put on conveniently with one hand.”

The first U.S. auto maker to include seat belts in all its vehicles was Studebaker — which included them as a delete option in 1963. By then Volvo was also including Bohlin's three-point seatbelt in its cars sold in the U.S.

Directly from MB:
"Mercedes-Benz first offered its customers 3-point seat belts in 1968"

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

REAR SEATS:
1969: Volvo provides 3-point belt in rear as standard in all markets.
1969: Mercedes-Benz adds 3-point belt in rear outboard seats as standard in all markets.

What do you have for sources?

Wed Mar 30, 2016 11:49 am

ataraxia wrote: This has turned into a case of "MB fanboi" vs. "Volvo fan": :lol:

The dates I had in mind weren't 100% correct but 'close'...so I looked up the information.

FRONT SEATS:
The first car with a three-point belt was a Volvo PV 544 that was delivered to a dealer in Kristianstad on August 13, 1959.

1959: Volvo makes the 3-point seat belt standard. In Sweden.
1963: Volvo introduces 3-point belt in front as standard, in USA.

Before 1959, only two-point lap belts were available in automobiles; for the most part, the only people who regularly buckled up were race car drivers. The two-point belts strapped across the body, with a buckle placed over the abdomen, and in high-speed crashes had been known to cause serious internal injuries. In 1958, Volvo Car Corporation hired Bohlin, who had designed ejector seats for Saab fighter airplanes in the 1950s, to be the company’s first chief safety engineer. (A relative of Volvo CEO Gunnar Engelau had died in a car crash, which helped motivate the company to increase its safety measures.) Bohlin had worked with the more elaborate four-point harnesses in airplanes, and knew that system would be untenable in an automobile. In designing the new seat belt, he concentrated on providing a more effective method of protecting driver and passenger against the impact of the swift deceleration that occurred when a car crashed.

Within a year, Bohlin had developed the three-point seat belt, introduced in Volvo cars in 1959. The new belts secured both the upper and lower body; its straps joined at hip level and buckled into what Bohlin called “an immovable anchorage point” below the hip, so that they could hold the body safely in the event of a crash. According to Bohlin (as quoted by The New York Times in his 2002 obituary): “It was just a matter of finding a solution that was simple, effective and could be put on conveniently with one hand.”

The first U.S. auto maker to include seat belts in all its vehicles was Studebaker — which included them as a delete option in 1963. By then Volvo was also including Bohlin's three-point seatbelt in its cars sold in the U.S.

Directly from MB:
"Mercedes-Benz first offered its customers 3-point seat belts in 1968"

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

REAR SEATS:
1969: Volvo provides 3-point belt in rear as standard in all markets.
1969: Mercedes-Benz adds 3-point belt in rear outboard seats as standard in all markets.

What do you have for sources?

That's a goof.

Mercedes offered the first 3 point retractable seat belts in 1968.

What's my source? 40 plus years of observation.

As to your rear seat observation... I think they're pretty much equal. I seriously doubt the rear middle seat belt on any car is 3 point, even today. MB was just being more specific, I think.

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:25 pm

Tram wrote: ataraxia wrote: This has turned into a case of "MB fanboi" vs. "Volvo fan": :lol:

The dates I had in mind weren't 100% correct but 'close'...so I looked up the information.

FRONT SEATS:
The first car with a three-point belt was a Volvo PV 544 that was delivered to a dealer in Kristianstad on August 13, 1959.

1959: Volvo makes the 3-point seat belt standard. In Sweden.
1963: Volvo introduces 3-point belt in front as standard, in USA.

Before 1959, only two-point lap belts were available in automobiles; for the most part, the only people who regularly buckled up were race car drivers. The two-point belts strapped across the body, with a buckle placed over the abdomen, and in high-speed crashes had been known to cause serious internal injuries. In 1958, Volvo Car Corporation hired Bohlin, who had designed ejector seats for Saab fighter airplanes in the 1950s, to be the company’s first chief safety engineer. (A relative of Volvo CEO Gunnar Engelau had died in a car crash, which helped motivate the company to increase its safety measures.) Bohlin had worked with the more elaborate four-point harnesses in airplanes, and knew that system would be untenable in an automobile. In designing the new seat belt, he concentrated on providing a more effective method of protecting driver and passenger against the impact of the swift deceleration that occurred when a car crashed.

Within a year, Bohlin had developed the three-point seat belt, introduced in Volvo cars in 1959. The new belts secured both the upper and lower body; its straps joined at hip level and buckled into what Bohlin called “an immovable anchorage point” below the hip, so that they could hold the body safely in the event of a crash. According to Bohlin (as quoted by The New York Times in his 2002 obituary): “It was just a matter of finding a solution that was simple, effective and could be put on conveniently with one hand.”

The first U.S. auto maker to include seat belts in all its vehicles was Studebaker — which included them as a delete option in 1963. By then Volvo was also including Bohlin's three-point seatbelt in its cars sold in the U.S.

Directly from MB:
"Mercedes-Benz first offered its customers 3-point seat belts in 1968"

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

REAR SEATS:
1969: Volvo provides 3-point belt in rear as standard in all markets.
1969: Mercedes-Benz adds 3-point belt in rear outboard seats as standard in all markets.

What do you have for sources?

That's a goof.

Mercedes offered the first 3 point retractable seat belts in 1968.

What's my source? 40 plus years of observation.

As to your rear seat observation... I think they're pretty much equal. I seriously doubt the rear middle seat belt on any car is 3 point, even today. MB was just being more specific, I think.

Let's work with reality:

Mercedes followed along Volvo's trail very closely and developed only one 'first': Mercedes-Benz was first to introduce pre-tensioners to seat belts on its 1981 S-Class. When car sensors detect an impending accident, an expanding gas is released that drives a piston and tenses the seat belt just before impact.

As to your '1959' seat belts:

Fasten your seat belts, please
In 1958 seat belts were available for all Mercedes-Benz passenger cars equipped with individual front seats. The first seat belt versions were lap belts. Federal German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer was one of the customers to opt for these early dual-anchorage seat belts. A lap belt was installed for him in the rear of his Mercedes-Benz 300. From 1961 onward, Mercedes-Benz exclusively offered dual-anchorage shoulder belts (hip to shoulder) for individual seats.

In 1966, the simple belts stretching from shoulder to seat that had been the norm until then were replaced by three-point seat belts. Until the introduction of the three-point inertia-reel seat belt as standard equipment on the front seats in 1973, the seat belt remained an optional item of equipment.

Source: Mercedes Benz. :lol:
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-657486-1-86...2194861602

Volvo: The most recent major change visible to the naked eye was the inertia-reel mechanism introduced in 1969, which made the belt more comfortable and flexible.

Source: Volvo UK
https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/pressreleases/20505

As to your last item:
Since September 1, 2005, all new cars sold in the U.S. require a lap and shoulder belt in the center rear seat. (edited year to correct to 2005 from 2007)

Source: NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/Anton_FRNov16.html

I currently own a 2015 Volvo V60 - 3 point seat belts in all five seats and built in headrests for all five seats (whiplash protection).
I also own a 2010 Mazda CX-7 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.
My previous car: 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.

Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:00 pm

ataraxia wrote:
I currently own a 2015 Volvo V60 - 3 point seat belts in all five seats and built in headrests for all five seats (whiplash protection).
I also own a 2010 Mazda CX-7 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.
My previous car: 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.

My wife's 2000 Honda Accord has 3 point belts for all 5 seats too.
My 92 Geo Prizm has 3 point seat belts in the rear (2), and retractable 2 point (upper point on the door) belts up front, combined with a retractable lap belt, that's seperate from the door belt. :shock: My 97 Accord has 3 point belts in 4 places, and 1 lap belt in the middle of the rear seat.

Just goes to show you the differences in belt design, and the way different manufacturers worked within the law. My 97 Accord, and my wife's 2000 Accord both have driver and passenger air bags, while my 97 S-10 only has a driver side bag (trucks got safety stuff later than cars did).

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:43 pm

ataraxia wrote: Tram wrote: ataraxia wrote: This has turned into a case of "MB fanboi" vs. "Volvo fan": :lol:

The dates I had in mind weren't 100% correct but 'close'...so I looked up the information.

FRONT SEATS:
The first car with a three-point belt was a Volvo PV 544 that was delivered to a dealer in Kristianstad on August 13, 1959.

1959: Volvo makes the 3-point seat belt standard. In Sweden.
1963: Volvo introduces 3-point belt in front as standard, in USA.

Before 1959, only two-point lap belts were available in automobiles; for the most part, the only people who regularly buckled up were race car drivers. The two-point belts strapped across the body, with a buckle placed over the abdomen, and in high-speed crashes had been known to cause serious internal injuries. In 1958, Volvo Car Corporation hired Bohlin, who had designed ejector seats for Saab fighter airplanes in the 1950s, to be the company’s first chief safety engineer. (A relative of Volvo CEO Gunnar Engelau had died in a car crash, which helped motivate the company to increase its safety measures.) Bohlin had worked with the more elaborate four-point harnesses in airplanes, and knew that system would be untenable in an automobile. In designing the new seat belt, he concentrated on providing a more effective method of protecting driver and passenger against the impact of the swift deceleration that occurred when a car crashed.

Within a year, Bohlin had developed the three-point seat belt, introduced in Volvo cars in 1959. The new belts secured both the upper and lower body; its straps joined at hip level and buckled into what Bohlin called “an immovable anchorage point” below the hip, so that they could hold the body safely in the event of a crash. According to Bohlin (as quoted by The New York Times in his 2002 obituary): “It was just a matter of finding a solution that was simple, effective and could be put on conveniently with one hand.”

The first U.S. auto maker to include seat belts in all its vehicles was Studebaker — which included them as a delete option in 1963. By then Volvo was also including Bohlin's three-point seatbelt in its cars sold in the U.S.

Directly from MB:
"Mercedes-Benz first offered its customers 3-point seat belts in 1968"

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

REAR SEATS:
1969: Volvo provides 3-point belt in rear as standard in all markets.
1969: Mercedes-Benz adds 3-point belt in rear outboard seats as standard in all markets.

What do you have for sources?

That's a goof.

Mercedes offered the first 3 point retractable seat belts in 1968.

What's my source? 40 plus years of observation.

As to your rear seat observation... I think they're pretty much equal. I seriously doubt the rear middle seat belt on any car is 3 point, even today. MB was just being more specific, I think.

Let's work with reality:

Mercedes followed along Volvo's trail very closely and developed only one 'first': Mercedes-Benz was first to introduce pre-tensioners to seat belts on its 1981 S-Class. When car sensors detect an impending accident, an expanding gas is released that drives a piston and tenses the seat belt just before impact.

As to your '1959' seat belts:

Fasten your seat belts, please
In 1958 seat belts were available for all Mercedes-Benz passenger cars equipped with individual front seats. The first seat belt versions were lap belts. Federal German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer was one of the customers to opt for these early dual-anchorage seat belts. A lap belt was installed for him in the rear of his Mercedes-Benz 300. From 1961 onward, Mercedes-Benz exclusively offered dual-anchorage shoulder belts (hip to shoulder) for individual seats.

In 1966, the simple belts stretching from shoulder to seat that had been the norm until then were replaced by three-point seat belts. Until the introduction of the three-point inertia-reel seat belt as standard equipment on the front seats in 1973, the seat belt remained an optional item of equipment.

Source: Mercedes Benz. :lol:
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-657486-1-86...2194861602

Volvo: The most recent major change visible to the naked eye was the inertia-reel mechanism introduced in 1969, which made the belt more comfortable and flexible.

Source: Volvo UK
https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/pressreleases/20505

As to your last item:
Since September 1, 2005, all new cars sold in the U.S. require a lap and shoulder belt in the center rear seat. (edited year to correct to 2005 from 2007)

Source: NHTSA
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/Anton_FRNov16.html

I currently own a 2015 Volvo V60 - 3 point seat belts in all five seats and built in headrests for all five seats (whiplash protection).
I also own a 2010 Mazda CX-7 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.
My previous car: 2008 Mazdaspeed 3 GT - 3 point seat belts in all five seats.

Whatever. I'm not in the mood to split hairs with a Volvo derp. :lol:

I was alive in the 1960s; we had these cars, my parents and grandparents strapped my young ass into these cars as a lad, I know what I saw and I remember them well. I have a second owner 1967 200D out in the shop right now that I just upgraded to inertia lap/ shoulder belts for the two front seats and outer rear seats... all the factory mounted welded in fasteners were already there. Same with the 1965 220SEb that I'm putting together.

The MB guys are probably being modest.

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:16 pm

Tram wrote:
I have a second owner 1967 200D out in the shop right now that I just upgraded to inertia lap/ shoulder belts for the two front seats and outer rear seats... all the factory mounted welded in fasteners were already there. Same with the 1965 220SEb that I'm putting together.

Aftermarket upgrade to intertia reels is a completely different topic.

Standard seat belt anchor points facilitated retrofitting and were introduced for front seats in November 1961, for rear seats in 1962.

Source: Mercedes Benz
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

MercedesClass.net
http://www.mercedesclass.net/safety-2/safety-technology/restraint-and-assistance-systems/

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:46 pm

ataraxia wrote: Tram wrote:
I have a second owner 1967 200D out in the shop right now that I just upgraded to inertia lap/ shoulder belts for the two front seats and outer rear seats... all the factory mounted welded in fasteners were already there. Same with the 1965 220SEb that I'm putting together.

Aftermarket upgrade to intertia reels is a completely different topic.

Standard seat belt anchor points facilitated retrofitting and were introduced for front seats in November 1961, for rear seats in 1962.

Source: Mercedes Benz
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAssets/pdfmb/serviceandparts/seatbelts_airbags.pdf

MercedesClass.net
http://www.mercedesclass.net/safety-2/safety-technology/restraint-and-assistance-systems/

Point being is that if i could install inertias with no mods, the cars were already set up for 3 point from the factory. From the factory- that was what you got. Prep. All seat belts for all makes were aftermarket in those days and absolutely none were factory installed. You go to an early Volvo and you'll find Klippan or Kangol belts, and these were NOT factory.

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:21 pm

This thread has officially been hijacked.

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:17 pm

dirtslinger wrote: This thread has officially been hijacked.

CRUCIFY THE.... oh, wait. But ataraxia started it.

Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:27 pm

If it's been hijacked, then you'd better fasten your sea... never mind.

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:13 am

dirtslinger wrote: This thread has officially been hijacked.

Welcome to the type 3 forum!

Now you know more about seat belts than you'd ever want to know!

I did tons of research on them in college for a psychology course in the pre-Internet days.