TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:33 am

From what the book says, it is just like manual except for the fact that the torque converter will stay with the transmission and need to be supported so that it does not come loose if the transmission.

I have done manual in beetles many times and type 3 manual just the other day. I'm just clarifying.

And when I put it back in, what needs aligned? How easy is it to get back in? I will be taking an engine out and doing another back in.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:48 am

myself I find it easier to pull the whole thing as a unit, then you don't have to worry about the torque converter or bending the pump shaft, and there's less risk of ruining the NLA) front mount if you don't support the trans properly

Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:52 am

Pump shaft? I was not aware of a pump.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:28 am

it's easy, the most easy air-cooled engine to pull! you need to support the box and it's also advisable to make up a small strip of metal to stop the TC falling out the bell housing. the idea is to leave the TC in place then you don't have issues with pump drive falling out etc..

under the engine there is a small gap big enough to get your 13mm wrench in to undo the 3 TC bolts, once they are off the engine simply comes away (obviously after you have done everything else generical to the bug engine)

failure to support the box when they separate will leave you with a split front autobox mount and good luck trying to find a new one!

Mark.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:30 am

Mark Shutt wrote: it's easy, the most easy air-cooled engine to pull! you need to support the box and it's also advisable to make up a small strip of metal to stop the TC falling out the bell housing. the idea is to leave the TC in place then you don't have issues with pump drive falling out etc..

under the engine there is a small gap big enough to get your 13mm wrench in to undo the 3 TC bolts, once they are off the engine simply comes away (obviously after you have done everything else generical to the bug engine)

failure to support the box when they separate will leave you with a split front autobox mount and good luck trying to find a new one!

Mark.

Nice. Good info.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:01 am

When it comes time to put in the new engine, keep in mind it should only take light pressure to spin the TC... if you're having to force it, it's not engaged properly and you want to backtrack even if that means pulling the engine again. I didn't do that and instead bolted it to the flex plate anyway.... bad idea - resulted in a snapped pump shaft and chewed up oil pump in a newly rebuilt trans.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:06 am

if you leave the TC in the tranny like you should then there is no issues meshing things up or risk of damaging pump drive, you simply line up the 3 bolt holes 8)

Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:57 am

I worked at a vw dealer in the late 80s and it is so much easier to remove them both as a whole and separate on the bench or floor. You do need to take the converter bolts out before hand though. There is the only positive way you can reattach the motor to the converter and make sure it all spins freely along with the trans pump being fully ingaged. If you are off by a 1/2 inch you could destroy the pump or something else. That with the fact you are trying to slide an engine into a trans that can move around on a jack and possibly bumping the converter? I say to each there own and learn as you go what is easier and faster. I like to find the fasted=st way to do things with the least amount of possible problems, and for sure the motor/ trans as a whole is faster and less stressful! Good luck to ya though

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:23 am

Tramsdisciple wrote: I worked at a vw dealer in the late 80s and it is so much easier to remove them both as a whole and separate on the bench or floor. You do need to take the converter bolts out before hand though. There is the only positive way you can reattach the motor to the converter and make sure it all spins freely along with the trans pump being fully ingaged. If you are off by a 1/2 inch you could destroy the pump or something else. That with the fact you are trying to slide an engine into a trans that can move around on a jack and possibly bumping the converter? I say to each there own and learn as you go what is easier and faster. I like to find the fasted=st way to do things with the least amount of possible problems, and for sure the motor/ trans as a whole is faster and less stressful! Good luck to ya though

This.^^^

The IRS Type 3 was designed to pull the entire drivetrain as a unit. People piss and moan that it's "extra work" but it actually just makes everything SO much simpler- you're not fighting opposing angles on re-install, and having the gearbox flop one way while the engine flops another, for example.

The key is having the proper jack. A motorcycle jack works nicely. A BIG floor jack is good also. Heavy duty big jackstands are a must, too.

Just pull the entire unit at once- Engine, trans, axles, trans mount. Bada bing. Separate everything once it is out.

Absolutely EVERYONE who has "fought" me on this but reluctantly tried it once has never gone back to JUST removing the engine.

This is the official way to do all IRS aircooleds, by the way.

And, for you TOOBers, you may not know this, but... when you remove a late Bay or Vanagon engine from your vehicle, those 3 bolt plate assemblies that bolt onto the body, are slotted, and support the rear engine support bar are factory aligned and should NEVER be removed with the engine. The support bar needs to drop down out of those brackets. So yeah, you always need to remove those two upper trans support bolts on your '72 on Bay anyways. Again... designed and engineered to come out as a unit :wink:

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:39 am

Slow 1200 wrote: myself I find it easier to pull the whole thing as a unit, then you don't have to worry about the torque converter or bending the pump shaft, and there's less risk of ruining the NLA) front mount if you don't support the trans properly

There are two in the classifieds right now...

Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:41 am

one4house wrote: Mark Shutt wrote: it's easy, the most easy air-cooled engine to pull! you need to support the box and it's also advisable to make up a small strip of metal to stop the TC falling out the bell housing. the idea is to leave the TC in place then you don't have issues with pump drive falling out etc..

under the engine there is a small gap big enough to get your 13mm wrench in to undo the 3 TC bolts, once they are off the engine simply comes away (obviously after you have done everything else generical to the bug engine)

failure to support the box when they separate will leave you with a split front autobox mount and good luck trying to find a new one!

Mark.

Nice. Good info.

Also, keep in mind that once seperated, you're also going to need a 36mm socket (and probably an impact) to get the AT only gland nut off, and then you can use 2-8mm bolts to remove the flex plate from the engine (since you're looking at doing an engine swap. You'll also need to check and re-set the end play of the replacement engine with the flexplate installed. You might have to cut a chunk out of the engine case to allow a little more room for bolting up the flexplate to torque converter, so look at the old case, to see where you need to do the trimming. Also look at the cam plug, and make sure that the bolt heads clear it, as the difference between an AT engine, and an MT engine is the direction of the flat part of the plug (outside for MT, inside for AT). Just a heads up on the little differences. :wink:

Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:29 pm

ataraxia wrote: Slow 1200 wrote: myself I find it easier to pull the whole thing as a unit, then you don't have to worry about the torque converter or bending the pump shaft, and there's less risk of ruining the NLA) front mount if you don't support the trans properly

There are two in the classifieds right now...

That may be true, but it's a roll of the dice with that part. I discovered mine was bad last year, and at the time none were available in the classifieds so I bought one for $120 from ISPWest. I later got a parts trans for a fraction of that cost that had a good mount, so I kept it for a rainy day.

Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:32 pm

ddare wrote: ataraxia wrote: Slow 1200 wrote: myself I find it easier to pull the whole thing as a unit, then you don't have to worry about the torque converter or bending the pump shaft, and there's less risk of ruining the NLA) front mount if you don't support the trans properly

There are two in the classifieds right now...

That may be true, but it's a roll of the dice with that part. I discovered mine was bad last year, and at the time none were available in the classifieds so I bought one for $120 from ISPWest. I later got a parts trans for a fraction of that cost that had a good mount, so I kept it for a rainy day.

There are lots of parts like that for Type 3...that's why it's always good to have a spare! Just pointing out that they're available NOW because they won't be there when one is needed (as you found out).

Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:09 pm

ataraxia wrote: ddare wrote: ataraxia wrote: Slow 1200 wrote: myself I find it easier to pull the whole thing as a unit, then you don't have to worry about the torque converter or bending the pump shaft, and there's less risk of ruining the NLA) front mount if you don't support the trans properly

There are two in the classifieds right now...

That may be true, but it's a roll of the dice with that part. I discovered mine was bad last year, and at the time none were available in the classifieds so I bought one for $120 from ISPWest. I later got a parts trans for a fraction of that cost that had a good mount, so I kept it for a rainy day.

There are lots of parts like that for Type 3...that's why it's always good to have a spare! Just pointing out that they're available NOW because they won't be there when one is needed (as you found out).

Yup, I've got a spare 1 myself. I only have 1 AT car here (and 3 MT cars), but you never know when you're going to need one. It's attached to the spare AT trans I picked up 11+ years ago (again just in case :wink: ).

Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:30 pm

I was reading this post today.

I removed my engine once to install a rebuilt engine I did. I was loaned a large floor jack and placed plywood under the engine and had the auto trans bell housing supported on wooded blocks car raised and had the flex plate bolts out and everything else that needs to be off , off.

I must say I had the car raised up and fought to get the engine off the jack since I did it by myself. I ended up lifting one side of the engine up and kicking the jack out and then pulled the engine out on the plywood. I think I had the FI runner's off and IAD for more clearance.

Since the bell housing was stable nothing moved.

I had it with the floor jack so I made a dolly out of 3/4" plywood and casters.

Then I made a wooden lift out of 2x4's one on edge the width of the floor around the engine cover so it all most touched the side panels and then mounted two 2x4" flat on each end and made them stable with brackets .

On the 2x4 on edge I drilled a 3/4" hole in the center for a long threaded rod . I placed a second set of 2x4"'s right one the cargo floor so they almost touched the side panels so not to stress the floor ie not near the side of the engine cover opening and also so I could slide the fixture I made back and forth. Fastened a chain and S hook to the threaded rod and used a large washer against the hole in the 2x4 cross piece and a flat needle bearing I had on that and another washer then a long 3/4" nut like one used to connect 2 3/4" threaded rods together.

With this in place I ran the threaded rod down until I could get the S hook into the loop at the rear of the IAD then put the engine on the dolly rolled it under the car , got it centered and turned the 3/4" nut to raise the engine up I used a ratcheting box wrench from sears .

Once the engine was close to the correct height it was a bit down at the rear because of balance but level side to side I pushed down on the rear of the engine and checked to see if the two lower studs were close to the bell housing , got them set then as I pushed down on the rear of the engine with one hand and forward on the 2x4 cross bar and it went home .

Just to note the rear hanger mounts told me it was going in fine since they slide over the engine hanger, plus once the hanger holes lined up I placed a bolt and nut in each . Got under to see how the flex plate was and that I could easily turn the converter, put the nuts and washers on the two lower engine studs and lowered the rod until the engine and bell housing mated up .

My thinking was since all the engine weight was always on the body and the bell housing was on blocks neither would move up or down and they didn't. I checked once again to make certain the converter would turn free then bolted them together. I was also able to have the IAD and runners installed of course.

Using the floor jack to get the old engine out did move the converter back a bit but I turned it until it went fully home .

Years later the auto trans lost the forward gears so I rebuilt another I had . I decided to use the same method to install the entire unit . The dumb thing I did was try to pull the trans by removing the 4 mount bolts and lower the trans at the rear of the trans axle housing . I removed the 4 nuts off the trans studs and I came off alright , thing is so did the inner pump drive and thinking I could hold the trans up with one hand and wood blocks on the floor . I was in a panic , sudden strength came on and I was able to lift the trans and side the pumps shaft back into the outer tube then managed to lower the trans to the floor with one hand without dropping it.

I didn't damage anything as luck would have it . I did have a spare set of pump and turbine shafts .

Once I got the trans done I put the trans back to the diff then slide the turbine shaft on place until I felt it seat then the pump shaft I inserted and rotated until I felt it catch the splines in the pump and seat the put the converter back on and rotated it until it went home . Then mated the engine on the dolly using blocks to get it aligned . I must say I really needed a better setup to mate the engine to the bell housing . It can be done two ways . Have the converter in and engine mated to the bell housing then insert the turbine shaft and seat in by rotating then the pump shaft then set the trans onto the 4 studs , level it on the pan and rotate the converter by hand until the trans pump and turbine engage in the trans keeping a bit of pressure on the mount end of the trans . You can feel them engage , I did it a few times to get the feel of the spines.

I raised it back up with the same setup I made only this time I cut a slot in 2 bolts with the bolt head removed ( guide pins)and put them in the lower holes of the trans mount so the mount would slide into the frame plate , this time with the trans and diff it was balanced and fell into place .

I was afraid of the weight hanging on the welded on metal eyelet on the rear of the IAD but noticed it is one piece to the case so you are not pulling on the IAD or plate plus I added turn buckle from the S hook to another top case bolt forget which one just in case the balance was off and for added security . It worked out fine .

It was just my way of doing it . Besides you know when the converter and shafts are lined up by feel and to make certain before you force the engine and bell housing home with weight or the bolts see if the converter touches the flex plate , if it does it's not in proper . When it is you can pull the converter back to touch the flex plate not much but it does move a bit .

Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:43 pm

I've never removed them as a unit. I didn't want to have to mess with all those 12 point capscrews and also the mounting, wires, etc. But those who have done it swear by it.

Done separately, I was careful when parting the engine and trans, so that the TC stayed with the trans. Move the engine back (apart) 1/4", then gently pry the TC forward (into the trans), then repeat until apart. Then I placed a bar across the TC bolted to one of the four mounting holes. I did this a few times and never seemed to have any problem with the TC getting loose and had no problems with mating them back up.

VW did intend for the engine to come out by itself, too, even made a special tool (VW785) to hold the trans up while the engine was out.

Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:55 pm

KTPhil wrote: I've never removed them as a unit. I didn't want to have to mess with all those 12 point capscrews and also the mounting, wires, etc. But those who have done it swear by it.

Done separately, I was careful when parting the engine and trans, so that the TC stayed with the trans. Move the engine back (apart) 1/4", then gently pry the TC forward (into the trans), then repeat until apart. Then I placed a bar across the TC bolted to one of the four mounting holes. I did this a few times and never seemed to have any problem with the TC getting loose and had no problems with mating them back up.

VW did intend for the engine to come out by itself, too, even made a special tool (VW785) to hold the trans up while the engine was out.

I feel the same way. If I just needed to work on the engine that's all I would remove and I never had any problem with the TC , I would just get under the car after the engine was back a bit and at that point you can push the TC into the bell housing if it does move back.. Mine never tried to back out . I just put a metal bar there and then when ready to install the engine I made sure it was in all the way .

I pulled the entire drive train only because the trans needed to be repaired . It's not only the drive shafts but the shift cable and ground strap and kick down wire and trans mount , plus I don't care to leave the CV joint on the unit I removed both so they were out of the way and not getting caught on something . Then you need to wrap then so crap does not enter the joints no matter what .

I suppose each has their way that works for them. Last time when I pulled the entire deal out I wish I would have replaced the TC seal again I did it 6 years earlier when I did the engine because it was leaking a bit the TC where it rides on the seal was perfect but I see trans fluid now and it's not from the trans that I can see that's still dry and clean . I also wish I had cleaned all the crud off the trans axle when I had it out but at home in the garage it just wasn't something I felt like doing I just cleaned the mating surfaces and back a bit so nothing would get on the trans large O'ring and gasket or between the engine and bell housing and I cleaned inside the bell housing .

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:44 pm

Unless the trans has to come out, I pull the engine separately. I guess it's from my 30 years of playing with type 1s :oops: . Since I do all of the work by myself (and have two floor jacks), it still seems like a dangerous balancing act to pull the trans and the engine at the same time. Plus if your not careful, IMHO you can put a lot of strain on the front trans mount. Of course VW had special tools to pull the engine and trans as a unit. 1st, they had the engine fixture.

But this would not work with your typical floor jack. Instead it was made for a trolley jack.

Since I don't have one of these, I revert to pulling the engine separately. As far as holding the trans, a good ratcheting strap, along with a couple of pieces of wood will hold the trans in place.

.

Then I bought a harbor freight motorcycle jack and modified it with a tilting top plate and stops to keep the engine from sliding around.

The only down side is that I have to pull the exhaust header off to install the engine.

However, even with this, it is still far easier to do an engine drop and install then it is in a type 1, especially if you have dual carbs :) .

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:05 am

I did mine with the engine and (automatic) transmission as a unit. It was easy, and by unbolting the front trans mount first, you don't have to worry about it. I did use a Harbor Freight scissor-style transmission jack though.

It takes 5 minutes to disconnect the shifter cable and ground strap, 20 to do the axles.

Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:58 am

Donnie strickland wrote: I did mine with the engine and (automatic) transmission as a unit. It was easy, and by unbolting the front trans mount first, you don't have to worry about it. I did use a Harbor Freight scissor-style transmission jack though.

It takes 5 minutes to disconnect the shifter cable and ground strap, 20 to do the axles.

It's hard to tell from the picture how large your jack is, but how stable was it for one person? Also, where did you center the jack plate?