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Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:06 pm

A friend just passed this onto me from an article in machinist workshop:

Machinist's Workshop Mag recently published some information on various penetrating oils. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.

They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oils........... Average torque load to loosen*
No Oil used .................. 516 pounds
WD-40 ......................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench .............127 pounds
Kano Kroil.................... 106 pounds
ATF*/Acetone mi..........53 pounds

The ATF/Acetone mix is a "mix-your-own-brew:" 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF/Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix.
*ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:14 pm

Not surprised by those results, I've used "used motor oil and gasoline 50/50 for bolts with better results than any commercial product, the ATF/Acetone might be less flamable if heat needs to be added, but still, anyone using one of these home brews, use caution if torches are needed as well. Good post!!

Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:52 pm

How did they handle time?

I assume every product was allowed to soak for an equal length of time, but how much, and did they keep the metal wet if the product tended to evaporate? For example, PB Blaster would evaporate faster than transmission fluid, so if the test were 10 minutes that's probably not important. If the test were over 4 days it would make a huge difference.

Or to look at it another way, let's say that a bolt is no longer "stuck" if 150 pounds of torque can loosen it. In real life I don't care that ATF and Acetone can loosen it to 53 pounds--as soon as it can be removed at 150 it's off and I'm on to the next one. So if Liquid Wrench can get the job done after 30 minutes, it's a better product than the ATF/Acetone if the ATF/Acetone takes 60 minutes.

Without time in the results, they're pretty worthless.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:52 pm

coad wrote: How did they handle time?

I assume every product was allowed to soak for an equal length of time, but how much, and did they keep the metal wet if the product tended to evaporate? For example, PB Blaster would evaporate faster than transmission fluid, so if the test were 10 minutes that's probably not important. If the test were over 4 days it would make a huge difference.

Or to look at it another way, let's say that a bolt is no longer "stuck" if 150 pounds of torque can loosen it. In real life I don't care that ATF and Acetone can loosen it to 53 pounds--as soon as it can be removed at 150 it's off and I'm on to the next one. So if Liquid Wrench can get the job done after 30 minutes, it's a better product than the ATF/Acetone if the ATF/Acetone takes 60 minutes.

Without time in the results, they're pretty worthless.

You're the guy if some says too hot, you say what's the exact temperature, always the devils advocate or someone who wants and engineering degree explanation for something as simple as a tip for loosening bolts, just ridiculous.
Buy what you want.
The reason for using less torque has nothing to do with time, what is important, is the fact you would be less likely to snap a bolt off in lieu of actually retrieving it. Extremely important when removing bolts from dis-similar metals or hard to drill out locations. If you don't care how much torque is needed as long as the job is done, use a 3/4 inch breaker bar for everything.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:27 pm

I did a bit of research on this article. It was published in the April 2007 issue and is readily quoted all over the Internet. So far, the only way that I can see to get the details is to buy the back issue if it's still available. I agree that the time that the various oils were left on before the test would be nice to know. If for no other reason, so that we would know when to try and remove the fastener. It's pretty obvious that these oils don't work at their optimum the very second that they are applied. They need some time to penetrate. How much time would be nice to know.
Bottom line, they're all good products and all of them will work to one degree or the other. I happen to have ATF & Acetone in the shop, so maybe I'll try this.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:31 pm

don't_bug_me wrote:
You're the guy if some says too hot, you say what's the exact temperature, always the devils advocate or someone who wants and engineering degree explanation for something as simple as a tip for loosening bolts, just ridiculous.
Buy what you want.
The reason for using less torque has nothing to do with time, what is important, is the fact you would be less likely to snap a bolt off in lieu of actually retrieving it. Extremely important when removing bolts from dis-similar metals or hard to drill out locations. If you don't care how much torque is needed as long as the job is done, use a 3/4 inch breaker bar for everything.

Yeah, you're right. Shame on me for wondering about how things work in real life instead of just blindly accepting whatever a magazine like Home Machinist's Workshop prints. Everyone knows they're like the New England Journal of Medicine for the guys who build toy steam engines.

I should know better than to question the top flight research the scientists at a place as prestigious as that come up with. I bet they even used a separate coffee can for each type of oil.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:46 pm

coad wrote: Shame on me for wondering about how things work in real life

Nope, just shame on you for missing the obvious, just a help topic with some ideas the OP found and thought some might find useful.
Some things don't need to be over complicated with all the whys and hows.

Anyone who's been in an automotive feild for any length of time, has found similar remedies during their course of repairs, I think you took the original post out of context, I doubt he was re-inforcing the claim of all the commercial can products but showing the inexpensive solution with shelf products referenced.

And my appologies for coming on to strong, your post wasn't as offensive as I had made out, just been tired of a lot of other post recently that are more troll related than helpful insight, guess I took yours a little to serious.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:30 pm

Thanks for the true breakdown chart! I've wondered if the aerokroil has been as much an asset to me as I've always thought- and it makes sense. It has always outperformed PB blaster- but not by leaps. I like it because it is in a handy sprayer can ready for using- and accepts a straw. ATF and acetone sounds great for a series of big projects- but storage and future use from the batch seem to be problem. Jar perhaps?

Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:13 pm

I have posted this same study and its results several times over the last several years. I first found it in Farm Country magazine. I have been using the ATF/acetone witch's brew with great success. I mix it and keep it in one of those aluminum aerosol cans that you can fill and pressurize yourself. Just shake it well before use as the brew separates quickly.

As for time allowed to penetrate, I have no idea what the study process was. But I do know that with any penetrant I always try to give the stuff ample opportunity to do its job. If something is really important, and really stuck, I may apply multiple squirts over several days. Tapping on the fastener occasionally seems to help, too.

Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:29 pm

I've been using this brew since I came across it here on a thread about loosening door hinges a couple of months ago. I have no fancy tests but the seat of the pants measurement leads me to believe it works really well. It did a great job on some rusted exhaust hardware that had nearly always snapped on me in the past. I've had better luck using a little more atf than acetone. Maybe 60/40 or so.

I keep it in a coffee can and the little I'm using in an old fashioned clicky oil can with a little silicone plug in the tube to keep it fresh. I still keep a can of stuff around. There is no one solution to every problem.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:05 pm

I have to say "I've tried the rest and only use the best.

http://www.gibbsbrandlubricant.com

This is sold at Trade Shows, Gun Shows, Auto Show & Swaps, etc.
Awesome Stuff. Try a can and you'll say the same.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:11 pm

Typ3nut wrote: I have to say "I've tried the rest and only use the best.

http://www.gibbsbrandlubricant.com

This is sold at Trade Shows, Gun Shows, Auto Show & Swaps, etc.
Awesome Stuff. Try a can and you'll say the same.

Does it cost more than fifty cents for a can? Because that is about what the witch's brew costs to make and it works quite well.

Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:47 pm

cdennisg wrote: Typ3nut wrote: I have to say "I've tried the rest and only use the best.

http://www.gibbsbrandlubricant.com

This is sold at Trade Shows, Gun Shows, Auto Show & Swaps, etc.
Awesome Stuff. Try a can and you'll say the same.

Does it cost more than fifty cents for a can? Because that is about what the witch's brew costs to make and it works quite well.

:roll: $16.00 ea.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:53 pm

I've used the ATF / Acetone mix for years.

I used spray bottles but the mixture always ate and messed up the pump valves.

Awhile back I stumbled across this Spray Bottle marketed with WD40's gallon cans. It has a side refill hole and what has proven to be a high tolerance to chemicals.

You can adjust the spray pattern from a stream to a mist.

I Highly recommend this bottle! .... And ATF / Acetone.

Dave

Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:45 pm

Thanks Dave! My old fashioned metal clicky oiler works but I needed something like that for those harder to reach spots.

Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:02 pm

The first time I mixed up some witch's brew, I used a plastic bottle. It melted overnight. Good to see that there is some kind of plastic bottle that holds up to the acetone.

Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:46 am

don't_bug_me wrote: coad wrote: Shame on me for wondering about how things work in real life

Nope, just shame on you for missing the obvious, just a help topic with some ideas the OP found and thought some might find useful.
Some things don't need to be over complicated with all the whys and hows.

Anyone who's been in an automotive feild for any length of time, has found similar remedies during their course of repairs, I think you took the original post out of context, I doubt he was re-inforcing the claim of all the commercial can products but showing the inexpensive solution with shelf products referenced.

And my appologies for coming on to strong, your post wasn't as offensive as I had made out, just been tired of a lot of other post recently that are more troll related than helpful insight, guess I took yours a little to serious.

That's an interesting choice of words coming from you seeing as how most of your posts come across as blatant trolling.

Coad posted an intriguing and appropriate question. I've spent more than my fair share of time trying to free frozen and rusted fasteners, and the tried and true method that I can share with people is to alternate applying heat to the fastener followed by lubricating the fastener(s) with PBlaster. It can be a time consuming process and in the end fasteners can still snap.

I have mixed a concoction of ATF and Acetone as an experiment but don't believe I achieved the correct proportion. I did notice that ATF and Acetone do not mix well together to create a homogenous solution and will separate within minutes. The result is even more evident when it has sat overnight.

As Coad suggested, it would help to know that Penetrating Oil #1 works best on stubborn fasteners; Penetrating Oil #3 works best on rusted fasteners; and that Penetrating Oil XXX should never be used on certain fasteners (ie. aluminum). One might produce the best results overnight, while another may work best as I mentioned above by alternating it with the application of heat. Knowing those specific details would help people better budget their time by how to best deal with stubborn fasteners so they don't have to spent the better part of a day fighting with that one that just will not yield.

Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:19 am

Gary wrote:
That's an interesting choice of words coming from you seeing as how most of your posts come across as blatant trolling.

Trolling consist of someone openly attacking an OP's thread rather being a contributive participant, I neither attacked the OP or added offensive material to derail his thread, and even appologized for coming on too strong to the member for my comments. If I have been trolling threads, I would have heard about it from a moderator, long before now, but, what I don't stand for, is exactly what trollers do, and have no qualms about jumping in a thread where it obviouly apparent when they are present, basically, I don't like bullies, and sometimes I'm guilty of siderailing a topic because of it. Usually, the only complaints are from the troll who doesn't like his nose rubbed in his own shit.

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:10 pm

Sometimes I really miss the rants.

Thu Nov 07, 2013 1:22 pm

Moderator says... that was not a troll, just a normal argument/misunderstanding of intent that happens with text communication.