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Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:11 pm

Ok, I'm pulling the motor and I'm going to find the blowby. Before pulling it, I figured I'd check the end play on the crank. with the engine still in the car, end play is .020 . What do you all say to that? It's a 1641 Dual Port. I'm hoping to put in a piston and cylinder kit and be done. Otherwise, my wife just my kill me.
Thanks, Bob

Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:16 pm

that's a lot, .003-.005" is the spec, pull the flywheel I'd bet the rear main bearing is loose in the case

Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:18 pm

.020" is way too much.

Time to split the case.

Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:28 pm

Um let me inform you that your wife may kill you, as you say. You are taking a good approach to the repair.

Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:34 pm

Here's some advice from a old married man.

Its easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:10 am

Before a total panic I would pull the flywheel just to see if there are any shims there.
DWP

Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:10 am

Hoping to get out there tonight. The big conundrum: I want winter over, but if it gets over too soon, I won't get to drive the rail as much! Damn, life is hard!

Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:05 pm

FINALLY, good enough weather and little enough work that I can get to the garage. Got the flywheel off and found: three shims, .007, .009, and .012

What does this mean to me? Also, notice the heads are stamped "Mexico". where does that put me?

I have a running 'spare' engine, out of the Manx, I'm thinking I'll swap the clutches and TO bearings and install that motor to drive for a while, and start in on the motor that came out of the rail.

If end play is too excessive, what all do I need to have done at the machine shop to the bottom end, and can you 'ballpark' the price for me?
I have to sell the wife on needing funds. That ain't gonna be easy. the war with PennDOT was costly! In dollars and future 'funds access'.

If machine shop is needed, Dave, do you have a recommendation in the area? I usually use L&M engines in Hatboro for the Mustang, but I'm not sure he's up to speed on VW.

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Why don't you install more shims and see if you can solve one problem . Then move onto compression and leakdown tests to find your blowby .

Sat Mar 08, 2014 2:42 pm

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm trying to figure out if I can do, or not. Given the shims I have in there, what can I do to remedy the situation? I have no clue as to maximum amount of play that I can take up with shims before creating another issue. I'm at .028 in shims now. Is it really that simple?

I have the new pistons and cylinders in hand, and will be tearing the motor down soon. Tomorrow is 'install spare motor and get back on road' day, after Church. Then I can focus on the 'main' engine and getting it back to 'ready' status.

Thanks for all the input. I really do appreciate it. Bob

Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:10 pm

you need to see if the thrust bearing is moving on the case....good chance it is. IF so...all those shims will bind up and smoke the bearing

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:20 am

Yes, you cannot expect to solve this issue with a thicker shim stack. However, you can add additional shims to "lock" the flywheel against #1 bearing so that another reading can be taken, to determine how much of the "endplay" is actually bearing slop.

Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:36 am

I doubt it's the shim pack....best bet would be get another good running engine,put it in the car then proceed to properly rebuilding/upgrading what you have.dont tell the wife or tell the wife thats up to you.but if you spend $1500.halfassing it and the wife is ok with it then it comes appart and will take $3000 to fix it right this time well.....she might look for another wrench to turn your nuts with.or possiably a hammer&vise

Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:50 am

58Dub wrote: you need to see if the thrust bearing is moving on the case....good chance it is. IF so...all those shims will bind up and smoke the bearing
Correct...almost :)

Once you have the engine out remove the flywheel, shims, seal and distributor cap.
Place your thumb or forefinger on the thrust bearing and with your other hand rock the dist rotor back and forth which will cause the crank move back & forth as well.
If the thrust bearing moves you will feel it as you were paying close attention while floating the crank fore and aft.

*Flame suit on*
If you do feel movement you can measure how much the bearing is moving and take that into account when resetting the end play.
It will leak oil and could ruin your case when it finally spins the bearing.
I know of an engine that has had the thrust bearing moving .010" for at least 20K.
*Flame suit off*

Any more than .010" though, and you should think about having your wife rebuild that bottom end.

Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:04 pm

Ok, checked as you indicated. No movement detected at all. I even went as far as using a screwdriver to pry the crank pulley forwardand back. Pulley/crank moved, but zero movement on bearing. What does this mean for me?

Thanks, Bob

Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:12 pm

Axitech wrote: Ok, checked as you indicated. No movement detected at all. I even went as far as using a screwdriver to pry the crank pulley forwardand back. Pulley/crank moved, but zero movement on bearing. What does this mean for me?

Thanks, Bob

that means that your wife is not going to be upset :)

what was the condition of the flywheel snout, crank, dowel pins & shim pack, etc?
if there is no damage to the thrust bearing, flywheel snout or crank you can reassemble to the proper .003-.006"

know any history on this engine?

Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:40 pm

All seemed ok, no marks or wear evident. History is that it had a "big jug and piston kit" installed out in San Diego when my brother had it. If I recall the pistons were marked 87 Mahle when I had the heads off last year.

I have a butt load of blowby, and it's starting to occur to me that my timing may have caused the issue. SVDA distributor and from what I have been reading, I may have had too much advance. I'm hoping to get this done and back on the road shortly. It sucks, I finally get the rail street legal (the only one so far in Pennsylvania) and the motor goes belly up on me. And it's getting nice out.

So, bringing it up to spec, would involve adding shims to get to the point. Any idea how much needs to be added, or is it a trial and error, "check, adjust, make changes, check adjust" type operation?

Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:52 pm

I went through this end-play thing and was able to take most of the play out and drive it another year but it's tricky, You probably won't know if your ok until you put the engine back in the car and drive it a couple of hundred miles then check the end play again.
The shims come in various thicknesses and new they are stamped in millimeters, it takes 3 shims to get the .96 millimeters 1.08 mm or more your going to need. Shims range from .24 to .36mm so you could add a .24 mm shim which would take out .24mm which is about 10 thousandths of an inch. and the .36 shim is about 14 thousandths. but your going to need 16 thousandths so your going to need a different combination of shims. You can do it trial and error if you have a flywheel torquing tool and tighten the flywheel to 250 lbs of torque each time you measure the end play. If you shim it too much the flywheel locks up against the bearing and the engine will not turn but the main may be loose enough in the case that it moves a little still which is one way to confirm you need to split the case and install new a new main bearing if the case is not beyond thrust specifications. It's tricky but shims can be added. Here is a link to what I did! But I'd say mine was probably worse than yours, it turned out to be a bad case (The thrust was over cut). Type 1 1600 with End Play, Patch? JB weld? Weld? Help?
CM/2.54=Inches and mm/10=CM so for example .32mm/10=.032cm and .032cm/2.54=.0126 inches or 12.6 thousandths.

Photo of my worn out case upon tare down.

Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:19 pm

Thanks for the pic. I was having difficulty visualizing the issue until I saw that.

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:56 pm

So help me out with the math here:

Shims presently in engine:
.009, .007, and .012 =.028
end play measured before disassembly: .020
recommended end play: .002-.003

So far, I think I see the need to lose .018 to .017 in play
If I subtract .017 from the .028=.011

So, what I THINK I see is a need to come up with a shim that will add .011 to the pack. I could do this by removing the .007 and replacing it with a .018, or remove the .009 and replace it with a .020. Does that all make sense? Of course, I'll remeasure it after reshimming the engine and before final reassembly, but I'm looking for validation that I'm on the right track here, or am I completely on the wrong track?

I've seen recommendations of using a total of "three shims". This is sometimes mentioned as "VW LAW" and other times as "common practice by VW". Whichever, I'll try to stick to it.