TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:15 am

so, like many other baja owners im sure, i spend alot of time daydreaming about many different engines that could be used in my car. currently i have a datsun 1500cc, and made a custom adapter plate an throwout bearing to make it work, so the fabbing of something custom isnt all that intimidating. here is my point though, i keep seeing videos on youtube where somebody put one of those suzuki hayabusa engines in a smartcar, and another video showed one in a mini cooper. sure these bikes only weigh 600 pounds, but i think the combination of a lightweight, high powered motor sounds very tempting, and the exhaust sounds driving around town would be hilarious. just read the wiki page on these bikes and they say the engine makes the following figures.. (1,299 cc, liquid cooled inline 4, 16 valves an double overhead cams)
155.9 hp (116 kW) hp @ 9,700 rpm 95.5 lb·ft (129.5 N·m) @ 8,000 rpm
anybody see a reason with why this couldnt be in a baja? and also while we are discussing this what is your dream engine swap, and why?
are there any more common or more powerful motorcycle engines then this one?

Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:50 am

Biggest problems would be reliability and gearing. High revving engines wear faster simply because they go through more cycles over a given time. In order to use that engine, you need to really gear it down...like big time. Just look at the RPM that engine is spinning to make its peak torque. No VW transmission ever produced would be happy with that engine. You would have to mount in a different transmission that would match a screaming engine like that...

Not worth it in my opinion.

I'm looking at dropping in a Type 4 VW engine. More torque lower down, bullet proof bottom end, and an easy to service top end.

Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:09 pm

I would think a type 1 Stroker with 78 mm crank and 92 mm thickwall pistons and cylinders would be much more suited to a Baja. With big valve heads and 48 IDF's it could make that kind of power at a more useable RPM. Better Torque too I would think! Building a Stroker, what should I build?.

Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:23 pm

I think it sounds cool. If you had the time and money to burn it would be worth checking out. You could be the the guy that put the bike engine in a bug, people would be talking.

Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:54 pm

This is true, it would make a good show piece.

...but I would never abuse it.

Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:24 pm

I personally love the idea but motorcycles are kind of my thing so I'm a bit biased.

The busas are plentiful and powerful enough for sure. I own a Kawasaki ZX14. Stock numbers are about 203hp at the crank and 175 at the rear wheel. It doesn't take much to push that up higher either. In stock gearing it will get to its limited 186 mph a lot easier than you would think. That being said that's pushing around a 500# bike plus my 145# self.

The transmission would probably be gone so no worries about blowing the vw trans up. Almost all sport bikes have the transmissions built into the case. Even if you used a cruiser engine that used a seperate transmission you would have to find a way to get the belt or chain to drive your transmission of choice. Easiest way would be to buy a bolt in kit that a company makes that I can post the link to later. They put gsxr 600 and 750 engines into their custom made buggies using an engine cradle to hold the engine then running the power to a hub that turns cv joints through a arns to.the rear wheels. The complete rear end its like $3k but if you can do the work yourself could be done fairly reasonably.

The abuse probably would wear them down a bit but modern motorcycle engines are good for upwards of 50-75k + miles with hardly any maintenance other than valve adjustments and oil changes. Most people wreck them before they ever see that mileage though so that's why you don't see a lot of high mileage bikes. I just got rid of a klr650 with 54k miles still running like a top.

Gsxr engine are probably the easiest and most plentiful. The 600 and 750s are everywhere. Busa and Zx14 engines are pricey but not much more for the power increase.

It would be cool to do but in reality the torque is lacking and it would be a lot of custom work. At the end of the day 200hp is 200hp whether it comes from a busa engine or an ecotec engine. The only real advantage is the weight you would be saving. Where else could you get an engine and trans that weighs 150 pounds?

Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:45 am

Off roading is about torque. That means displacement and gearing, neither of which are in favor for motorcycle engines.
We have some friends with a Yamaha powered Legends car, a miniature 34 Ford of sorts. It is geared for 140mph. They want to regear it for about half that. A sprocket that size will drag on the ground below the tires. A second "Jack" shaft is beyond their means.
Maybe you want a pair of Harley 1200cc boat anchors in there, or a Goldwing or two. :?
Power to weight vs torque off idle and low speed tractoring discussions are much different than magazine quality drag race centered horse power ones.
Light weight, simplicity, durability and low gears is what started this whole VW offroad thing. Oh, and cheap used stuff. It's still the basics.
Dennis

Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:29 pm

Since this is fantasy....Go for broke.....

Dale

Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:23 pm

I know a lot are saying torque is everything, but a 1600 VW ain't making much of it....hell a ZX-14R motor would beat it...

Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:43 pm

edit..

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:04 pm

[quote="Tswami"]
The transmission would probably be gone so no worries about blowing the vw trans up. Almost all sport bikes have the transmissions built into the case. Even if you used a cruiser engine that used a seperate transmission you would have to find a way to get the belt or chain to drive your transmission of choice. Easiest way would be to buy a bolt in kit that a company makes that I can post the link to ilater. They put r 600 and 750 engines into their custom made buggies using an engine cradle to hold the engine then running the power to a hub that turns cv joints

..mother of god. i still think this is a interesting discussion, i particularly like the idea of the motorcycle transmision, how.many gears do the bikes have? im sold though i want to try this now. to offroad with this kind of power, there is also a long list of things my car would need to be safe and durable. noteworthy items would be 5 point harness seats, full
rollcage, A arms or reinforced spindles, and rear disc brakes. but who knows how well it works if nobody tries it. all the tiny cars fitted with these engines are scary fast, and if you can get aftermarket gears for the transmission that would be ideal, opposed to a huge sproket limiting grpund clearance

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:41 pm

You'll have lots of uprating to do, the amount of stuff we did when we were only having 260-ish was a very long list - there's not much of the original buggy left tbh....

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:48 pm

yeah go nuts the less vw parts the better haha.. just kidding but in the event this much money was being spent on one car, why stop at one engine, not two like one wise man observed already. ridiculous hp for not much weight running two of them to 2 sprokets

Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:52 pm

Dale M. wrote: Since this is fantasy....Go for broke.....

Dale

Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:54 am

PhillipM wrote: I know a lot are saying torque is everything, but a 1600 VW ain't making much of it....hell a ZX-14R motor would beat it...

True, but you have to consider the fact that the VW engine was built to pull that load day in and day out... the motorcycle engine would most likely blow if run under full load for more than a few seconds.

Most people do not realize that our big V8 gas guzzling pickup trucks make about the same horse power as many of the turbo diesel 12-13 liter inline 6 semi truck tractor engines. It is all in how you utilize the power. Big pickup truck engines, although they are the same power, could never provide as much useful work as the large industrial engines in semi truck tractors... simply because industrial engines can be run near or at full power for long periods of time... pickup truck engines would just throw a rod and call it a day.

There is more to choosing a proper engine than HP and Torque numbers alone :wink:

Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:00 am

Vanapplebomb wrote: PhillipM wrote: I know a lot are saying torque is everything, but a 1600 VW ain't making much of it....hell a ZX-14R motor would beat it...

True, but you have to consider the fact that the VW engine was built to pull that load day in and day out... the motorcycle engine would most likely blow if run under full load for more than a few seconds.

There's hundreds, probably thousands of race cars over here built with bike engines that pull full load for a lot longer than any street or play car would, you're not going to be anywhere near full load on a zx-14r on a road/play more than 15-20 seconds at a time, and that's nothing.
Yes, it'll need more frequent servicing, just as they do in the bikes, because they're hard on oil, etc, but it sure as hell ain't going to blow up because you hold the throttle down for 30 seconds.

The 1600 might though, given the chamber pressures are going to be similar and the bike engine is made with far superior castings, coatings, tolerances, cooling and balancing....

Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:38 am

If you have soem dough to throw around go here and look at this.

http://www.protodie.com/

Buy this and weld it in. You have your motorcycle engine and the rear end all worked out. You can even buy one with reverse.

The amount of gears depends on the type of motorcycle you go with. Most street bikes now have a six speed gearbox but there are some with 5 speed. Some 4 wheelers share the same engines as one of the company's motorcycles except with a reverse (think Kawasaki mojave and klr250). Something like that would be good for a smaller buggy.

A big cruiser engine can make a ton of torgue and has a seperate transmission where you could mix and match gearing if you were creative enough.

Motorcycles are not as fragile as everyone makes them out to be. I'm not an authority but I've owned more than most ever will so I know a thing or two. A modern motorcycle engine built within the last 5 years is just as reliable as most car engines. They are built to last and can take quite a beating. The torque pull and stress from turning two big 32" tires and a 2000# buggy isn't going to go easy on it but it can be built to survive.

Cheap and easy I would go with a 600 or 750 engine as they are everywhere. You can find a wrecked bike in just about any town for cheap. I personally would go busa or zx14 because then you dont have to worry about making up power from aftermarket parts. However there are huge aftermarkets for both because of their use in drag racing.

Using the setup like I posted or even just one of their components like this:

you could do gearing chages without losing too much ground clearance. Wonder if you could run it into reduction boxes like on the bus?

The two engine idea would be intersting but no so easy with motorcycle engines. I've seen people do it with car engines and even with one engine running the front and one engine running the rear but getting them to sync would be a nightmare. Any variance could likely destroy it if not careful.

Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:03 pm

You don't need them to sync, the only thing you need in sync is the gearchange mechanism. There's a lot of twin bike engined racers over here (one driving each rear wheel). Don't need a LSD then either :D

Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:33 pm

so one could be running around 200 hp per back wheel, with turbocharged engines. I do not see why that wouldnt be good for offroading besides the weight difference of atleast 2000 pounds of car hurting the gear ratios, but if one could use reduction boxes at the wheel with it would be good for ground clearance also. as far as engine reliability goes, atleast they are liquid cooled, it would be nice to have a alternate disc shaft to run one motor, the chain or belt drives would preferably be easy to change and remove. the engines would have to be forward of the rear wheels right? would they wind up in the back seat area?

Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:09 pm

Correct, I may not haven written that clear enough. The engines wouldn't have to sync but you would have to sync the rear wheels through the gearing mechanism. You couldn't run each wheel off of a seperate engine without some sort of syncing.

Imagine you are on the street and both wheels have traction but one wheel is going faster than the other, that sounds like a recipe for disaster.