TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:34 pm

I did a search for this topic but might have not used the correct terms so I apologize in advance if this has been answered.

1964 Bug lowered with 2.5 drop spindles up front, adjustable spring plates out back to level out the ride. The problem is now every time the car hits a pothole, bump, or other road irregularity it seems to kick the back end to the right suddenly. Not just a little but enough that I am considering stainproof seat covers. Car hasn't been driven much at all since then due to schedule and weather.

The work was done at the custom VW place and after arriving home I noticed the lower passenger shock bolt was loose so I tightened it up but the problem still exists. I will check the upper shock mount and both mounts on the other side tomorrow when I am back home but wanted to get an opinion as to what other factor would cause the car to kick to the side like that.

Thanks in advance!

Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:51 pm

Do you have rear shocks installed? If not, that's the cause of the rear end wanting to slide out

Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:55 pm

Did they align the rear end? It doesn't sound like it.

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:26 pm

check the tow

Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:03 pm

Misadjusted rear toe in/out will lead to a very sketchy ride...

Take it back to the shop that did the work and take them for ride.

Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:26 pm

Does have rear shocks, and they are tight. Probably missed the rear alignment of the toe in/out so I'll head back to the shop.

Thanks!

Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:04 am

Just because you took it to a shop doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Even some VW shops don’t know what they are doing, or they give the job to a technician (you know the guys who used to be called mechanics) who doesn’t know what he is doing.

This is why it is very important that YOU try to learn as much about the car as you possibly can. When playing with 40 or 50 year old cars you better know what you are doing or have a LOT of money to pay someone else who knows what they are doing.

But when you start modifying things from the stock configuration, this becomes even more important.

Many guys lower simply and only because it looks cool. That is their main and only reason. They totally ignore the problems that can come along with the lowering job. Lots of times this is because they simply don’t know how to deal with it.

The swing axle VW has many inherent problems to begin with. In the rear camber and toe both change as the suspension moves up and down. That changes the direction that the wheel is trying to track. So as the suspension loads and unloads, the amount and direction of rear steer changes. This can lead to some very uncomfortable situations.

You need to understand that EVERYTHING in the design of the car is a compromise.

When you start changing things from the stock set up, you are putting things into a realm of compromise the factory tried to avoid because the big brains there didn’t feel that was the best way to go for the masses of the motoring public at the time.

When you go low in the rear you end up with toe in as well as a lot of negative camber. Both of those things are trying to steer the rear of the car towards the center. So not only are you running on the inside edge of the tire, but you are also experiencing a lot of tire scrub simply because the two tires are not steering in the same direction.

This actually leads to the rear tires fighting over which tire is going to gain the most traction and grip and that determines which way the rear of the car will steer. And since we are not driving on billiard table smooth roads, this fight between the tires is happening constantly as the suspension moves from inconsistencies in the road surface, or from other simple things like the wheel being out of balance.

A wheel out of balance on a car like this means that the amount of grip that tire has on the pavement at speed is changing as the wheel rotates. It loads and unloads from the imbalance with every rotation of the tire. So it grips, then slips with each rotation.

There isn’t anything you can do about the negative camber issue unless you do a transmission raise.

But you can alleviate this problem to some extent by extending the spring plates to be able to adjust the toe back into an acceptable degree of toe in/out.
Many shops and car owners are simply under the impression that if they take the parts out of the box and screw them on everything will be Okay. But this is not the case! Toe on the rear of the car still needs to be set.

This in itself brings up a few more problems. Since the car is now out of the factory camber settings, you can’t use the factory toe settings to get things right. So where do you go?

This is one reason many shops will no longer deal with modified cars. It’s too difficult to make the guess of where things should be set. Then you have owners who think their car should ride as comfortable and as well as it did in its stock settings once they slam it so far that there isn’t anymore suspension travel. (That ain’t gonna happen)

And there is also the law suite, lawyer issue that many shops don’t want to open themselves up to.

Taking it back to the shop that did the work can sometimes cause more problems. You paid them once to do the job. If they didn’t do it right because they don’t know what they are doing is this really the people you want working on your car?

Bottom line, you need to educate yourself on these things so you aren’t just going on blind faith when you drop your car off and write a check. Just because their business card says “expert” doesn’t mean they know anything about what they are doing – you can get those business cards from Vista Print too for $10!

Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:19 pm

As I remember it, lowriding was not one of the criteria that Adolf gave to Dr. Porsche...

Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:52 am

mcsquared wrote: Does have rear shocks, and they are tight. Probably missed the rear alignment of the toe in/out so I'll head back to the shop.

Thanks!

Why not get out your tape measure and see what you have before you take it back to the shop? That way you know what you are dealing with before you just show up and let them put their hand back in your wallet.

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:58 pm

drscope wrote: Just because you took it to a shop doesn’t mean they know what they are doing. Even some VW shops don’t know what they are doing, or they give the job to a technician (you know the guys who used to be called mechanics) who doesn’t know what he is doing.

This is why it is very important that YOU try to learn as much about the car as you possibly can. When playing with 40 or 50 year old cars you better know what you are doing or have a LOT of money to pay someone else who knows what they are doing.

But when you start modifying things from the stock configuration, this becomes even more important.

Many guys lower simply and only because it looks cool. That is their main and only reason. They totally ignore the problems that can come along with the lowering job. Lots of times this is because they simply don’t know how to deal with it.

The swing axle VW has many inherent problems to begin with. In the rear camber and toe both change as the suspension moves up and down. That changes the direction that the wheel is trying to track. So as the suspension loads and unloads, the amount and direction of rear steer changes. This can lead to some very uncomfortable situations.

You need to understand that EVERYTHING in the design of the car is a compromise.

When you start changing things from the stock set up, you are putting things into a realm of compromise the factory tried to avoid because the big brains there didn’t feel that was the best way to go for the masses of the motoring public at the time.

When you go low in the rear you end up with toe in as well as a lot of negative camber. Both of those things are trying to steer the rear of the car towards the center. So not only are you running on the inside edge of the tire, but you are also experiencing a lot of tire scrub simply because the two tires are not steering in the same direction.

This actually leads to the rear tires fighting over which tire is going to gain the most traction and grip and that determines which way the rear of the car will steer. And since we are not driving on billiard table smooth roads, this fight between the tires is happening constantly as the suspension moves from inconsistencies in the road surface, or from other simple things like the wheel being out of balance.

A wheel out of balance on a car like this means that the amount of grip that tire has on the pavement at speed is changing as the wheel rotates. It loads and unloads from the imbalance with every rotation of the tire. So it grips, then slips with each rotation.

There isn’t anything you can do about the negative camber issue unless you do a transmission raise.

But you can alleviate this problem to some extent by extending the spring plates to be able to adjust the toe back into an acceptable degree of toe in/out.
Many shops and car owners are simply under the impression that if they take the parts out of the box and screw them on everything will be Okay. But this is not the case! Toe on the rear of the car still needs to be set.

This in itself brings up a few more problems. Since the car is now out of the factory camber settings, you can’t use the factory toe settings to get things right. So where do you go?

This is one reason many shops will no longer deal with modified cars. It’s too difficult to make the guess of where things should be set. Then you have owners who think their car should ride as comfortable and as well as it did in its stock settings once they slam it so far that there isn’t anymore suspension travel. (That ain’t gonna happen)

And there is also the law suite, lawyer issue that many shops don’t want to open themselves up to.

Taking it back to the shop that did the work can sometimes cause more problems. You paid them once to do the job. If they didn’t do it right because they don’t know what they are doing is this really the people you want working on your car?

Bottom line, you need to educate yourself on these things so you aren’t just going on blind faith when you drop your car off and write a check. Just because their business card says “expert” doesn’t mean they know anything about what they are doing – you can get those business cards from Vista Print too for $10!

I have a Mexi-1970 with a wide 5 set-up, I slammed the back by moving the spring plates up, slammed the front also by shortening the beams 3 inches and welding an adjuster. I have drum brakes all around. The alignment was done by hand with a measuring tape.
The car drives straight as an arrow, and brakes hard straight on the highway. and sticks like glue on smooth pavement.
The only downside is that the rear shocks feel too soft now, and the front still needs shocks installed for better rough road handling.

On my '91, the rear suspension camber got adress with a "Thing" IRS transmission, and the front beam has been cut 2 inchs and has lowering spindles, and adjustable air shocks. Rides smooth, great as a daily driver.

They are set-up differently, and drive way differently, but they are both a joy to drive! ! !!

if you like the slammed look, just makes sure you adjust the steering/braking/allignment properly and you can achieve a decent ride quality.... but be patient, it might take a few tests and trials.