TheSamba.com :: View topic - Am I at the balancing stage of my build or not yet?

Sun May 18, 2014 2:07 pm

Still trying to do this 1600 like the "pros" and build it without any short cuts. Figured my first true ground up build should be by the book, that way I don't learn and bad tendencies. Only thing is none of the books I have say when to send it down to get it balanced...

So far the case has been machined, opened for full flow, decked, and aligned bored. Center main bearing is Mahle and is 100% inside OD oil grooved for my straight drilled crank. ( came w :shock: ith 100% oil ring on the ID side )

Crank is new and I have installed the distributor gear, cam gear, spacer, and bearing asm.

Rods have all been fit with bearings torqued then measured with bore gauge. Then compared to my crank. .0015 oil passage on all rods. I know it's a little tight, but don't want to have to grind / sand on my new crank unless 100% have to. 2 cents on gap???

The last thing I planned on doing was mock up the case, crank, flywheel and cam together in the case, torque the case, and spin the crank by hand. If she spins freely I was thinking this is the correct time to send her down to the machine shop.

Am I still on the right track ???

1600 DP W Dual 40 IDF
Compression will be 9-1
69 CW NEW CB crank
Scat 5.394 I beams 3/8 ARP 2000
Web Cam 218 split duration
CB light weight lifters
CB rockers 1.1 and solid shafts
AA 85.5 PC kit
Devees Ring set

Heads will be L3 from aircooled.net once I set my compression and deck. Ordered with compression cc'ed into head

Sun May 18, 2014 2:41 pm

Yep, get it all ready to put together and then send it out. Do the whole rotating assembly, crank, rods, flywheel, pressure plate.

Sun May 18, 2014 5:36 pm

Make sure your skirts clear the counterweights, otherwise you'll have to grind them after balancing.

Sun May 18, 2014 6:12 pm

Sorry to ruin your party, but you aren't ready to balance . Go ahead and instal crank and check for everything then add rods , check everything . Remove crank , install cam , check everything including end play. Remove cam , install lifters , check everything plus lifter to cam clearance . Now you can mock up the short block & check timing gear backlash . Once that is put together you can start on the top end , one P&C at a time without rings . Now set deck height & compression ratio . Assemble longblock , check valve to piston clearance . If all checks out ok then you are ready , dont forget pulley.

Sun May 18, 2014 6:13 pm

Oh thank you I didn't think about that, thats why I asked. :oops:

Well if I have to mount the pistons and cylinders, I might as well do my deck height and buy my heads now too. Right?

So, install crank and cam with a light greasing, torque down case, install flywheel set endplay, install P & C torque, set deck, and hand spin the crank to check all clearances complete?

Do I need to lube the P&C's at all for this process since there is no oil splashing around? I would think the rings must all be installed or at least the oil set to center the piston and not scratch the barrels.

Lastly, would I need my lifters in at this time? Don't know why I would, just thought I would ask to be safe.

Just noticed we posted at the same time, thanks for the break down posted above this.

Sun May 18, 2014 6:20 pm

If you want to set the valvetrain geometry, you'll need lifters. You also want to make sure they aren't too tight in the bores. Basically, you'd want to build up the whole engine and take it apart. I did that a few times with mine before final assembly, took quite a bit of time.

I had my crank/flywheel/pressure plate/pulley all spun together. Rods and pistons were balanced separately.

Stan

Sun May 18, 2014 6:34 pm

Yeah , like Stan said , you will need to build the motor completely then disassemble . Check your crank and cam individually , if somethings not right it's easy to tell what is wrong . Yes , you need your lifters now , they must fit in their bores and have .040" clearance from high point on cam lobe & lifter face.

Sun May 18, 2014 6:54 pm

Guess I have more work to do, I didn't realise I would be torquing so many parts so many times. Going to feel like a used motor lmao. Well I'm ok with this I don't mind the elbow grease just trying to do it right. Thanks for the input. Any other tips or things to check? Is there any parts that I will not need to install while checking?

Do you also mock up the oil pump before you move to the top end? Was not sure when checking this came into play.

I'm guessing the case doesn't need it's o'rings, or push rod tubes??

The book does talk about lifters and cam clearance, and that was on my checklist to do.

I'm using the "Tom Wilson" Rebuild guide. It pretty much just tells you how to assemble and check to see if components are reusable. It only mentions assembling the block twice, but with stock parts I guess there is allot less checking compatibility of after market parts.

Thanks again

Sun May 18, 2014 7:06 pm

Tom Wilson's book is awesome, but it covers rebuilding using stock parts which should all fit as intended. With aftermarket parts, there may be more surprises. The way his book lists installing the generator stand deflector plate is wrong, I did it his way (in 2 engines actually) and had oil coming out. You want cutouts parallel with case parting line, with rounded sides facing center of the case. I've taken apart at least 3 engines with the deflector plate installed his way.

Stan

Sun May 18, 2014 7:09 pm

Make sure cam plug fits well , and yes ,when checking the camshaft put in oil pump to check engagement and be sure oil pump intake hole lines up , studs long enough and that it spins when torqued down w/ gasket . You will be blue printing it , right ? Don't bother with o'rings or push rod tubes . Are you going to use a deep sump?

Sun May 18, 2014 7:14 pm

Tell the balancing guy to adjust everything separately. Slapping everything together and correcting unbalance in the pp on the crank is useless, but very common.

Sun May 18, 2014 7:18 pm

Blue printing yes, I started to fill out my sheets already. Deep sump, I wasn't planning on it. I live in Oregon where the temps are normally below 85F. Figured the full flow and a filter would be enough extra oil. Why else would I need a deep sump?

Sun May 18, 2014 7:23 pm

Deep sump is nice, but for this engine I chose to not get one for now, mostly to save money. I can always add it later. My engine takes almost 4 quarts without a deep sump (with large oil filter that came with Berg kit).

Stan

Sun May 18, 2014 7:30 pm

What I meant was , will you be blue printing the oil pump ? If you plan on any rapid starts or stops or any hard cornering a deep sump will keep the oil pick up submerged in oil - keeps bearings happy and slippery . But they do need to be mocked up first . Also you will need to pull all the oil galley plugs and fit them with npt plugs.
http://www.huelsmann.us/bugman/FilterTech.html

Sun May 18, 2014 7:51 pm

Sorry, yes I will blueprint the pump. I planned on checking / measuring everything I can on the sheet posted here on the Samba. As far as the link for full flow I already pulled the plugs and am waiting on a few reamers, taps from work vendors. I planned on orificing the number 4 main bearing journal since I'm cleaning the passage that had the restrictor plug. I'll think I shall pass on the sump for this motor. This is just a motor I plan on using intermittently when I end up building my 1915 for my oval. Figured this one I would cut my teeth on and learn on a very nice stock style motor. The more I can learn now the better my next motor will be.

One thing I was wondering is the amount of lube to use on the mock up. Will the collected dust from building this and storing it over the next few weeks all wash off no worries? I wonder mostly about my number 3 main bearing next to my cam drive gear.... I don't need to pull the drive gears off before final asm do I???? That would blow, but coming back from the balancer with metal in the journal would blow more.... O the things to learn

Mon May 19, 2014 12:45 pm

For mock up lube I just use 30WT or WD40 and cover engine with a large plastic bag to keep it clean . You will need to remove timing gear and such for cleaning , I would think it should be left on w/o bearing for balancing. Just make sure to get everything spotless before assembly .

Tue May 20, 2014 7:37 am

Should I make a build thread forithis 1600 or do we have enough? That way I post pic s though the entire process and not make a new topic every time I have a question.

Tue May 20, 2014 8:36 am

Do it, it may make it easier for others who are doing their first build. Pictures always help.

Stan

Tue May 20, 2014 8:45 am

wow thats a lot of new stuff for a stock sized motor. valve clearance will not be an issue.there should be no issue stoping it from being balanced now. but partial assy is nice to do to be sure there isant any issues.like the crank(counterweiight) hitting the main webbing/casting flash. you can do alll the other stuff like valve train geo after the case has been sealed up.there isant much you can do about gearlash,so thats a non issue, the .0015 rod clearance is fine& about what I try for with these small journols.it is nice to check to see that you have the right oilpump at this time .I try to order my cranks already balanced(have them balanced when I buy them)there is not much reason to alter that part.pistons can be balanced easely if needed.rods also dont usualy require anything that would throw out the balance,so they can be balanced before you get them( there usualy very close or dead on these days anyway).then there is the flywheel...again not much to be done to it,no clearancing or anything that throws off the balance job. soin the end if you have it balanced when you buy it all the only thing that might need altering is the pistons and there easy to do,no jig needed.and the shipping money you save froming sending back&forth will pay for the balance job. good luck&have fun!!!

Tue May 20, 2014 8:53 am

rustybusjef wrote: For mock up lube I just use 30WT or WD40 and cover engine with a large plastic bag to keep it clean . You will need to remove timing gear and such for cleaning , I would think it should be left on w/o bearing for balancing. Just make sure to get everything spotless before assembly . NEVER USE WD40 NEER AN ENGING WHILE ASSEMBLING!!!!!it is a dispersant and will leave a barrier on the parts it gets on.that barrier will let the oil shed right off and not do it's job of cooling or lubricating.only use oil,no greessee,no spray oils(execpt for those made for engine assy like comp cams spray valve spring lube),just oil and cam lube.be sure to lube the lifter bores&the dist drive gear too,as well as the thrust serfaces/shims,oil pump shaft,gears ,rocker shafts,rocker tips,pushrod tips,valve springs,valve guides/stems etc. I assemble with a mix of synthetic&dynosourus pee, molly cam lube(camshield)