TheSamba.com :: View topic - 1776 - 100 degree weather no external oil cooler

Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 pm

I was planning to attend Bug o Rama in Sacramento this weekend. First time up there in my new bus with new 1776 (1700 miles on it) I did not yet install an external oil cooler and so am just relying on the dog house cooler (plus a 1 qt capacity remote oil filter helps a bit I am sure). I have not yet installed oil pressure/temp gauges. Now I find out the forecast is for 100 on Saturday and 104 on Sunday. I am nervous about driving my new engine in that kind of weather before installing the extra cooler. I will be driving roughly 60 miles. Especially considering there may be memorial day traffic to contend with.

What do you guys think? Bad idea?

Fri May 23, 2014 12:29 pm

Any hills from Vallejo to Sac? If not, stick to 55 mph and you'll be fine.

Fri May 23, 2014 12:30 pm

You need a quick and easy, Gene Berg temp dip stick. Dan

Fri May 23, 2014 12:35 pm

I agree with Minidude, you may want to prop your decklid open, it will drop oil temps significantly. I am loading for bugo as we speak

Fri May 23, 2014 12:37 pm

Dan Ruddock wrote: You need a quick and easy, Gene Berg temp dip stick. Dan

That would be a great option, they work great for preventing total melt downs, however :0(

GB Oil temperature dipstick for Type I sedan and bus to 1971. This does NOT work with a gauge. *** NOTE As of 8/1/11 these are NLA as our supplier quit making them***.

You should be ok if you drive early and late, when temps are lower, and you may find a Oil temperature dipstick at the meet…

Fri May 23, 2014 12:42 pm

miniman82 wrote: Any hills from Vallejo to Sac? If not, stick to 55 mph and you'll be fine.

One big one just out of vallejo. Not going to be so hot in Vallejo, so not worried about that.

I have one of those temp dip sticks some where but no gauge to hook it to.

Fri May 23, 2014 12:59 pm

It uses your oil light wire and blinks the oil light when oil get too hot…

Fri May 23, 2014 1:26 pm

I recently fitted the Fram HP-1 oil filter then couple of weeks later I added a "24 plate" EMPI oil cooler.

Because my bus is lowered I cannot fit a deep sump to increase oil capacity and cooling. This is with a T1 engine with no CHT sensor.

Ambient temps 30-70F in UK ,uphill grade on motorway at 65-67mph

Without anything - Oil temp max 250F - driven 1000's miles in this configuration.

With oil filter only - Oil temp max 235F : that is 1qt extra oil capacity

With oil filter, EMPI cooler with air scoop and 176F sandwich plate thermostat -
Oil temp max 220F : that is 1.75qt extra oil capacity

Since then with the air scoop and cooler I note that the oil temperature runs about 140-150F hotter than the ambient air temperature.

If I drive the bus more like 60mph rather than 67mph, the oil temperature gets to 185F and stops there as the oil thermostat opens. Before it would sit at 210F.

Fri May 23, 2014 1:39 pm

mikedjames wrote: I recently fitted the Fram HP-1 oil filter then couple of weeks later I added a "24 plate" EMPI oil cooler.

Because my bus is lowered I cannot fit a deep sump to increase oil capacity and cooling. This is with a T1 engine with no CHT sensor.

Ambient temps 30-70F in UK ,uphill grade on motorway at 65-67mph

Without anything - Oil temp max 250F - driven 1000's miles in this configuration.

With oil filter only - Oil temp max 235F : that is 1qt extra oil capacity

With oil filter, EMPI cooler with air scoop and 176F sandwich plate thermostat -
Oil temp max 220F : that is 1.75qt extra oil capacity

Since then with the air scoop and cooler I note that the oil temperature runs about 140-150F hotter than the ambient air temperature.

If I drive the bus more like 60mph rather than 67mph, the oil temperature gets to 185F and stops there as the oil thermostat opens. Before it would sit at 210F.
You definitely! have a tuning, or combo problem. Even a splitty should be able to handle its own heat on its own at those speeds. You might wanna check that before yourr next long outing.

T

Fri May 23, 2014 4:11 pm

RPGreg2600 wrote: I was planning to attend Bug o Rama in Sacramento this weekend. First time up there in my new bus with new 1776 (1700 miles on it) I did not yet install an external oil cooler and so am just relying on the dog house cooler (plus a 1 qt capacity remote oil filter helps a bit I am sure). I have not yet installed oil pressure/temp gauges. Now I find out the forecast is for 100 on Saturday and 104 on Sunday. I am nervous about driving my new engine in that kind of weather before installing the extra cooler. I will be driving roughly 60 miles. Especially considering there may be memorial day traffic to contend with.

What do you guys think? Bad idea?

You should be fine, make sure its tuned up though. FWIW I drove my bug from Sac to San Diego in 100 degree weather, I think it was about 95 when I went up the grapevine, I took the hill at about 75 mph to keep my fan speed up, (1956cc in a light bug made it easy)

Fri May 23, 2014 4:18 pm

Swing by Home Depot and get yourself one of those $30 infrared temperature guns?

Fri May 23, 2014 4:43 pm

Rp,
It not going to be that hot here, only 97F on Sunday and 94F on Monday.
You should not have any problem unless you are flogging it. Drive sane and don't worry about the 80MPH crowd on I-80.
I driven in the 100F plus days in VW Buses in the Valley with never a problem of getting to hot.

Fri May 23, 2014 6:36 pm

Shouldn't be a problem at all.
To be on the safe side, prop the lid open a little, and keep it around 55mph.
Just take your time! 8)

Fri May 23, 2014 6:47 pm

its all about your tins and this:
jsturtlebuggy wrote: don't worry about the 80MPH crowd

Fri May 23, 2014 9:28 pm

Removing the front engine tin (the one the doghouse exits through and the fuel line goes through) on the bus creates an incredible air flow and lower engine bay temps, so I'm told by my vw machinist here in Renton. However, this also causes a lot of dirt and road debris to get kicked up into the engine bay.
So, maybe not worth the trouble. But there it is.

Fri May 23, 2014 9:52 pm

awreed wrote: Removing the front engine tin (the one the doghouse exits through and the fuel line goes through) on the bus creates an incredible air flow and lower engine bay temps, so I'm told by my vw machinist here in Renton. However, this also causes a lot of dirt and road debris to get kicked up into the engine bay.
So, maybe not worth the trouble. But there it is.

I did this with a bug many years ago. Not by design but because it didn't have that piece of sheet metal when I got the car. It was a 62. I didn't have any temp gauges to get accurate temps but just by feeling the motor and the dip stick it seemed to run very cool in very warm weather - it was a 40hp motor.

One option might be to cut out the sheet metal so there is just a frame left - screw the screen in place and see how it works. I would consider doing this on my Ghia if I didn't have a pair of AC fans directly under the trans that give off a lot of heat.

Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:38 am

The type 4 engine in a stock configuration can be driven at highway speeds under any ambient conditions found on planet earth. The oil temp sender that is traditionally fitted to the taco plate, measures sump oil temperature, not the temperature of the oil after the oil cooler. The oil that is delivered to the galleries is much cooler. An air cooled engine is cooled by oil, air and the intake charge. When you are going up a hill at full throttle on a 90 degree day, it is not uncommon to see the sump temperature rise to 270 degrees or greater. The oil is absorbing the heat from the cylinder walls and which are considerably hotter under max power than it is at cruise power. If the valve timing, ignition timing, compression ratio and carburetion are left in a stock configuration, the engineers built sufficient reserves in the design of the engine to allow for max power operation under all ambient conditions. While CHT gauges and Oil Temp gauges are interesting to look at, nothing can be done to control CHT or Oil Temp short of letting up on the throttle. With an aircraft engine, we could control CHT by cowl flaps and oil temperature by an oil cooler door. We also could increase the output of the engine for take off and climb outs by means of a turbo compressor and water alcohol injection. In essence, we could increase the Brake Mean Effective Pressure in the cylinders to meet the operating conditions. Max power was always limited to short durations (5 minutes). CHT gauges and Oil Temp gauge were necessary and useful on large radial engines, because we could increase power beyond normal cruise power by increasing manifold absolute pressure.

I have switched to a full synthetic oil because it offers greater protection at high oil temperatures than conventional oil and the price difference is not as great as it was several years ago. I tow a trailer with my 72 Westfalia and have been all over the world with the vehicle (31 countries). I have driven it in 100 plus heat in Turkey and climbed some of the steepest mountain passes in Europe all with out an engine failure. I change oil every 3k, and am still running stock solex carburetors. Ditch your gauges, maintain a stock engine and enjoy the scenery.

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:02 am

awreed wrote: Removing the front engine tin (the one the doghouse exits through and the fuel line goes through) on the bus creates an incredible air flow and lower engine bay temps, so I'm told by my vw machinist here in Renton. However, this also causes a lot of dirt and road debris to get kicked up into the engine bay.
So, maybe not worth the trouble. But there it is.

not worth the problems of getting junk sucked into the fan and clogging up the cooling fins and oil cooler. keep the engine bay sealed here, else you risk being a vacuum equipped street sweeper, a few hamburger wrappers sucked into the fan house will really heat things up DO NOT DO IT. VW put that tin piece there for damn good reason.

Fri Jul 04, 2014 10:11 am

72boughitnew wrote: The type 4 engine in a stock configuration can be driven at highway speeds under any ambient conditions found on planet earth. The oil temp sender that is traditionally fitted to the taco plate, measures sump oil temperature, not the temperature of the oil after the oil cooler. The oil that is delivered to the galleries is much cooler. An air cooled engine is cooled by oil, air and the intake charge. When you are going up a hill at full throttle on a 90 degree day, it is not uncommon to see the sump temperature rise to 270 degrees or greater. The oil is absorbing the heat from the cylinder walls and which are considerably hotter under max power than it is at cruise power. If the valve timing, ignition timing, compression ratio and carburetion are left in a stock configuration, the engineers built sufficient reserves in the design of the engine to allow for max power operation under all ambient conditions. While CHT gauges and Oil Temp gauges are interesting to look at, nothing can be done to control CHT or Oil Temp short of letting up on the throttle. With an aircraft engine, we could control CHT by cowl flaps and oil temperature by an oil cooler door. We also could increase the output of the engine for take off and climb outs by means of a turbo compressor and water alcohol injection. In essence, we could increase the Brake Mean Effective Pressure in the cylinders to meet the operating conditions. Max power was always limited to short durations (5 minutes). CHT gauges and Oil Temp gauge were necessary and useful on large radial engines, because we could increase power beyond normal cruise power by increasing manifold absolute pressure.

I have switched to a full synthetic oil because it offers greater protection at high oil temperatures than conventional oil and the price difference is not as great as it was several years ago. I tow a trailer with my 72 Westfalia and have been all over the world with the vehicle (31 countries). I have driven it in 100 plus heat in Turkey and climbed some of the steepest mountain passes in Europe all with out an engine failure. I change oil every 3k, and am still running stock solex carburetors. Ditch your gauges, maintain a stock engine and enjoy the scenery.

270F oil is too damn hot. the type IV motor can overheat, pulling a heavy load, at high speed on a hot day can overheat these motors, if you get 270F oil you are too hot, but if you believe it is fine, go for it.
gauges ARE highly recommended.

I have several typeIV cars, and they never ever get to 270F oil temp, ever, even in hotter air temps than 100F. No I have never been to 31 countries, not even to Turkey, so my advice must not be worth much.

Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:29 pm

bluebus86 wrote: awreed wrote: Removing the front engine tin (the one the doghouse exits through and the fuel line goes through) on the bus creates an incredible air flow and lower engine bay temps, so I'm told by my vw machinist here in Renton. However, this also causes a lot of dirt and road debris to get kicked up into the engine bay.
So, maybe not worth the trouble. But there it is.

not worth the problems of getting junk sucked into the fan and clogging up the cooling fins and oil cooler. keep the engine bay sealed here, else you risk being a vacuum equipped street sweeper, a few hamburger wrappers sucked into the fan house will really heat things up DO NOT DO IT. VW put that tin piece there for damn good reason.

The doghouse vent goes through the firewall tin and sucked fresh air as if the tin wasn't there anyway so there is no difference. Tin or no tin it's sucking the same air.

As far as that 1776 goes, unless that's a fully loaded HC engine you will be fine and don't even worry about it!! That's one of the most reliable best running daily driver engines out there. Good ol 90.5s. :wink: