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Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:41 pm

Guys I need some help here.

I have a 64 vert with an new front end. I replaced the steering box when I replaced the whole front end and have never been happy with the feel of the steering. When I replace the front I put a 2"inch narrowed beam in and also put 2.5 drop spindles on. I never used the lowering ability of the front end so It only sets 2.5 inches lower and looks great. I verified that the steering box is set right and very tight. I also verified thet the steering column is also installed right and tight. The suspension is also tight.

The problem I have is that no matter how much I tighten/adjust the lower and top bolts on the steering box I have a "big" lag in the steering. Iin slow traffic it is not a issue but above 20 miles and hour it is pain especially in the wind on the high way. It feels like there is gap in the steering from when it begins to steer left and right. I have put it up in the air and if you move the steering wheel in the air it moves the wheels left and right immediately(but slowly) but on the ground that small movement does not translate into real movement due to the friction until you really move the Steering wheel. As I said I have adjusted the crap out of it and it gets better but comes back or the adjustments are too tight and causes binding which is not good.

Any ideas?

Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:45 pm

Total front end replacement or just a new beam and spindles?

Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 pm

Total replacement. It is solid except the lag.

Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Did you do a 4-wheel alignment after you put in the new front end?
Wheel bearings adjusted right?

Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:21 pm

You didn't mention how the rear is sitting. If it isn't lowered as well, you may have a caster issue up front from a result of the lowered nose. That can feel similar to what you are describing. A set of caster shims would correct this if that is the problem.

But also check your rear wheel alignment. Either rear alignment or caster can do this and when you combine both it may feel pretty unstable in the driver's seat.

Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:38 pm

This may be a dumb question but have you lifted the front end and had a friend hold the steering wheel still while you try to move the wheel back and forth to check for play in the system?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:04 am

it's probably not the issue here, but in the past I noticed a similar issue when pushing my old beetle, with high profile 145 tyres, fast through tight chicanes. I took it to be the time taken for the tyre to roll from one side to the other under heavy cornering loads.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:59 am

One simple thing I've seen before is the bolts on one or the other side of the steering coupler disk are not tight enough, and will slip the amount of distance it takes to wedge against the securing bolt in the groove it sits in, on the steering box input shaft or column

Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:03 am

I adjusted the steering gear box about 1/4 to 3/8 of a turn to take most of the slack out of it. You have to be careful not to get the gears in a bind or to tight.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:54 am

I am going to try to answer all the questions. Thanks for all the ideas. I will work on it this weekend and let you know. (PS...This was a new/rebuilt steering box from Jbugs)

Shortride: I have tightened the slack out and it comes back but never really goes away in full. I have tried in the air and on the ground.

Glutamodo: I checked the Steering box bolts the bolts and they are tight. It is not moving.

Henry roberts: I doubt it is the profile of the tires. The front tires are stock tires and it does it on straight roads also. As it drifts due to wind and such on the highway the steering is like watching Maggy on the Simpsons steer her toy car car-seat. Big movements for little actual moves.

Arizonabuckeye: Yes I have done that on a rack with the wheels in the air. I feel almost no play by hand but on the ground it can be up to a 4" lag from the steering wheel. It was a spindle to spindle replacement ALL new.

Drscope. The rear has 8" wide tires but they are stock height and the rear ride height is stock. I have aligned all four tires and they are vertical with stock camber. I do not like the broke look. I will recheck the alignment.

KT Phil: Four wheel alignment and new bearings on all four wheels. (Lost of money there)

Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:46 am

tb03830 wrote: I feel almost no play by hand but on the ground it can be up to a 4" lag from the steering wheel. It was a spindle to spindle replacement ALL new.

If you have 4" of play then you should be able to have an assistant turn the wheel back and forth while you go underneath and look/feel for the slack. It should be obvious at 4"!

Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:51 am

KTPhil wrote: tb03830 wrote: I feel almost no play by hand but on the ground it can be up to a 4" lag from the steering wheel. It was a spindle to spindle replacement ALL new.

If you have 4" of play then you should be able to have an assistant turn the wheel back and forth while you go underneath and look/feel for the slack. It should be obvious at 4"!

You would think. I adjust the top knut and it almost goes away but comes back. Could I have a bad Box?

Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:51 am

Caster shims are cheap - about $10 if I recall correctly. And they are a quick and simple install.

So I think I would start with checking your rear toe settings and then if they are in spec, install the caster shims. That may be all it takes.

Not enough caster can really make the car feel worn out and not able to track where you want it to go. Stock ride height in the rear and drop spindles up front reduce the amount of caster you have. That may be enough for you to feel very uncomfortable in the driver's seat.

Couple that reduced caster with improper rear toe and you have a car that wants to walk all over!

Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:02 am

drscope wrote: Caster shims are cheap - about $10 if I recall correctly. And they are a quick and simple install.

So I think I would start with checking your rear toe settings and then if they are in spec, install the caster shims. That may be all it takes.

Not enough caster can really make the car feel worn out and not able to track where you want it to go. Stock ride height in the rear and drop spindles up front reduce the amount of caster you have. That may be enough for you to feel very uncomfortable in the driver's seat.

Couple that reduced caster with improper rear toe and you have a car that wants to walk all over!

I will try the Caster shims. I reseached it very hard before changing the front end and everyone said I would not need hem for a simple 2.5 inch drop.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:18 am

Normally you don't, but the VW is light enough in the front that you really can't have too much caster.

Plus it only has something like 3.3 degrees of caster to start with. So dropping the front end can reduce that, or in some cases even go to negative caster.

A big old American car with a heavy V8 and fat tires is a different story as the more caster you add the more effort it takes to turn the steering wheel. But the VW is light enough that you probably won't notice any difference in the steering effort required.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:48 pm

tb03830 wrote: KTPhil wrote: tb03830 wrote: I feel almost no play by hand but on the ground it can be up to a 4" lag from the steering wheel. It was a spindle to spindle replacement ALL new.

If you have 4" of play then you should be able to have an assistant turn the wheel back and forth while you go underneath and look/feel for the slack. It should be obvious at 4"!

You would think. I adjust the top knut and it almost goes away but comes back. Could I have a bad Box?

This is why I asked my question. If in the air you experience little or no play but while driving you do it tells you a couple things and paired with the new components you know
1. It's not the steering system
2. It's most likely not the result of a worn front suspension component
3. It is related to how the rest of the car reacts to a movement of the steering wheel
4. It is most likely a problem from your rear suspension.

At this point I would closely scrutinize everything about your rear suspension. It's "probably" not that your wheels aren't turning but that the rest of your car is fighting that movement or working against it.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:09 pm

Are you feeling any pinch points as you turn the wheel lock to lock? If your steering gear is not centered internally when driving straight ahead, you will have play that will not adjust out, no matter how tight the adjustment. But if you try, the tightness will wear out the new box and the play will return or get worse.

Look for a ring or mark that should point straight up when the steering wheel is centered:

Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:12 pm

And of course you have checked the tie rod ends and the pitman arm for play? They can be worn or loose, and the lack of resistance when in the air means the wheels could move immediately, but on the ground you have to take up the play first.

Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:18 pm

Several things to check before you risk your - and others' - lives by driving again:

*) The clamps between the steering column and the steering box (there are two). Check this WITH THE CAR ON THE GROUND..... not in the air. Lift the tank if you have to

*) The front-end adjusters: Do you have them? If these are loose the car you will get around 4-inches of slop at the wheel Two nuts on each adjuster: BOTH MUST be TIGHT

HTH

Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:19 am

VWCOOL: I have checked the clamps. The yseem sight as hell and I see no lag i nthe movement. When I intially installed itit did have that issue but I fixed it. No movement now.

KTPhil: The tie rod ends are new and not moving. I did check that. thought that was the issue initially. I feel no pinching but do believe the issue lies in the Steering Box and how it was rebuilt. I believe it may be just worn out and I bought a bad box.