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asesapie Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:52 pm

Hey guys I've been reading and reading trying to understand how to build a mild performance motor or better than stock. I'm not looking for tons of power but would like to see it around 100-120 HP. I think that range would make it a fun daily driver.

I have around $2000.00 in budget to build this motor with a good core already set aside. I have a set of CB performance 34 ICT carbs that I would like to continue to use.

So what can I build to reach that HP with my current carb setup and budget?

Thanks for helping.

W1K1 Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:21 pm

look up 1904cc in the type 3 forums, it has been a good size even for stock solex carbs if you stay within the stock RPM range. And you can keep the heat exchangers too.

It is a very nice daily driver for mine.

Alstrup Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:39 pm

And ICT´s stop at 93 - 95 hp. Soo :roll:
Time to rethink.

T

vwracerdave Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Lets be honest and truthful. $2000 is not going to get you 100-120 HP. You would have to seriously double that budget to get there. With your ICT's and budget building a nice 1776 with 80-85 HP is very doable.

midtravelmidengine Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:08 pm

vwracerdave wrote: Lets be honest and truthful. $2000 is not going to get you 100-120 HP. You would have to seriously double that budget to get there. With your ICT's and budget building a nice 1776 with 80-85 HP is very doable.

He did mention that he had a "good" core. :lol: Id say its doable for 2000 but the icts wont get him there.

asesapie Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:40 pm

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys. I was wondering if my ICT's would get me to my desired HP range and understand if they won't. I have a solid type 3 fuel injected block and heads that will be the main base of the motor. Just wondering what I should fill the guts of the motor with?

I understand porting/polishing the heads will improve the performance and will ask for that service as well.

I'm going to have a local shop here machine the block and heads and I'll assemble everything else myself.

gt1953 Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:44 pm

Balance everything, invest into head work for sure. Now your HP is that at the flywheel or to the ground? 2k will be a stretch to get the HP you mentioned.

VWCOOL Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:47 pm

On a budget? First engine? Don't make the mistake of 'target fixation' with a HP figure. Instead, look for ways to get the most you can with the budget you have and retaining as many of the standard bits as possible, such as crank, rods, pushrods, rockers etc.

So, for your first engine, build a 1640 or 1680 with a cam as there are no machining costs. It's just like a standard build but you will have a bit more poke.

Or, if you don't mind the extra spend, build a 1916. Best bang for your buck going. The cubes - torque - will get a relatively heavy type 3 going well. Works great with standard heads (in my experience, Type 3 EFI heads seem to survive without cracking etc so you may not have to spend any $ on them apart form machining) which will allow you to get great real-world, true street performance for your modest budget. Don't bother with headwork; it does SFA for cylinder fill at this level of performance

No it won't have 120hp...it probably won't even have 90...but it will be a very spirited daily car.

Sorry about the poor video but here's a Type 3 known to me with 75 at the treads (approx. 100hp flywheel). It's modified into a ute and runs Kadrons through the engine cover required for circa-100hp and as you can see, has enough grunt to kick the tail out :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bubrp04L9kQ

bugguy1967 Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:27 pm

X2 on the 1915. A bigger low revving stock stroke engine will cost less than a smaller high revving engine because the valvetrain needs way more attention. Get some stock dual port heads rebuilt and ported PROFESSIONALLY and Weber 40s with 30mm venturies. Use a mild cam like a W100 and you'll hit your target. You can still use your stock rockers, crank, pushrods, stock reground lifters, and 4 dowell flywheel. It's not going to make power over 5000, but your stock parts will be limited in that zone anyways.

My last T3 build was an 1835 thickwall engine with Dell 36s, W100, Brazilian lifters, CSP bellcrank linkage, rebuilt 3-angle stock heads, and over the top exhaust system. The total cost was $2100.

asesapie Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Okay I can understand I won't achieve 120HP but I would like to see somewhere around 100 if possible at the flywheel or wheels. My surrender engine is a stock 1600 win likely 50HP so I really just want to double that.

Thanks

modok Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:36 pm

Being a type-3 you are limited to reasonably low rpms(big fan on crank), and limited in what carbs you can fit under the lid.

the only option then........is build it big, and use carbs and heads that are adequate.

Alstrup Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:30 pm

Ditto on the crank fan and short intakes.
My bet would be a Web 218/119 or a Web 163 on 106 ILC, detailed heads, 9-1 CR, 40 IDF with 30 or 32 mm venturies, A 1½" header ´n good muffler.

The carbs need all the help they can get due to the short intakes, A set of these: http://www.socalautoparts.com/index.php/air-cleaners-amp-filters-c-1261_1268?page=3
1 1/4" stacks would help tremendeusly in straigthening the incoming air. Use f.i. CB base plates for air filters. Cut the mountin ears off along with the lower 1/4" of the stack, install the remaining stack into the base plate so the stack goes all the way down to the carb body. Seal the stack and airfilter base together with some build silikone for wet room use. These types usually will handle the gasoline vapors. This mod alone easily frees up 4 hp in the type 3 intake, plus you get a lot better fuel mix.

T

FreeBug Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:20 am

If larger than stock is what you're looking for, in a type 3, I would consider thick-walled 88s or 92s for bore, and I wouldn't go above 74mm in stroke, type 3 cooling sheet metal is unforgiving if engine width gets too big.

I made an 88 x 78 engine once, lots of work to get it together, but approx. 100hp with stock sized valves (but lots of porting), and heater boxes, Berg 1 3/8" header, single QP. Do you need heat?

Type 3: Cooling is fixed. Exhaust options can be limited. Full flow oiling install requires patience.

I would be tempted, if the engine were a milder daily driver, to keep heat and a stock weight flywheel (I'm an old fart).

Other than that, just listen carefully to Modok and Alstrup, and you should find a good combo.

VWCOOL Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:02 am

asesapie wrote: Okay I can understand I won't achieve 120HP but I would like to see somewhere around 100 if possible at the flywheel or wheels. My surrender engine is a stock 1600 win likely 50HP so I really just want to double that.

Thanks

That Type 3 in the vid I posted can break traction in second gear, regularly beats Subaru Turbos in events here in Australia and has a simple and effective 'off the shelf' engine spec (1916cc on standard/balanced rods and crank) that delivers 70-75hp to the wheels. Pretty close to 100 engine neddies. However it has Kadrons 'through the floor'. You don't need a 'combo' any more than that... your challenge is to find someone that can competently machine/assemble a 1916 with a bit of a cam . :)

Quokka42 Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:42 am

Real strokers end up around the same size as stock, but the larger cylinders are usually avoided as type 3 engines tend to run hot. The fan can be rebalanced to allow for a redline of say 6000rpm, but it tends not to be a quick revving engine. Carbs are always a problem with type 3 due to severely limited space, so you will need to get creative there.

asesapie Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:33 pm

So I've been thinking hard about what I want to build. I want to build my Squareback as I love that car and a fast Squareback just sounds cool to me. The problem I see is the engine hanger bar, will it be able to handle the amount of torque and power from a motor that is pushing 100-120hp?

I am going to increase my spending limit as I really want to see 120hp out of a motor for my square.

Has anyone built a performance square that cools nicely and can be used for a daily driver? What all will need to be done to keep the reliability or good cooling and the performance I want.

Alstrup Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:12 pm

asesapie wrote:
I am going to increase my spending limit as I really want to see 120hp out of a motor for my square.
Good.

asesapie wrote:
Has anyone built a performance square that cools nicely and can be used for a daily driver? What all will need to be done to keep the reliability or good cooling and the performance I want.
Several times. Use Revmaster, AA 501 or old 041GO3 castings as a base.
1904 is a good and relatively easy build. I would go 1955 though, as I really like that engine size and the way they perform. Use stock length rods.


T

ravivos Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:24 am

yes, i've just completed a 2021cc engine for my T34 (type 3 ghia).
the rear hangar that bolts to the body's side can handle the engine's torque better than the single center mount.

ive used HPMX 40 with 32mm vents, the T3 kit mounts under the decklid.
the short manifold might be a problem but the velocity stack suggestion sounds great (i should use it myself).
my engine is 76X92 Thick wall, using 5.5" rods and B pistons.
eventually, i got a narrower engine due to flycutting the heads for higher CR (9.2:1).
running a Norris 336S cam.
MegaJolt for ignition (was a true headache to get the crank trigger on this specific T3 due to an additional air conditioner pulley)

with ported heads, and approx 2000cc engine, you might get close to 120 at the flywheel.
go for a big torquey engine, avoid looking at the HP numbers, much more fun than a 120HP engine without any bottom end torque.


these carbs will fit under the deck


asesapie Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:53 pm

Does your motor get hot or does the stock type 3 cooling system work well enough? Are you running an external oil cooler?

luckystiff Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:09 pm

heres the combo in my square....
2021cc
76mm CB crank
92mm B Thickwall AA piston/cylinder kit
Rev Master 5.5" rods
Web 163 cam
Web Lifters
CB straight cut cam gear
manton push rods
40x35.5 Brothers VW heads with additional clean up and port work(mildish)
Brothers 1.25:1 rockers that actually measured out 1.36:1
Dual Dellorto DRLA 40s w/ CB linkage
Bosch 019
Berg full flow
1 1/2" header(yes there are 1 1/2" headers for t3) w custom exhaust
9.2:1 CR
the entire rotating assembly balanced out to i think it was 1/8 of a gram
premium grade ethanol free only

it's been sitting in my driveway wrecked for over a year with about 800 miles on the build. but i can tell you in that 800 miles even with me keeping it under 6k on the tach i was out running everything that came at me american and import. the 163 with the 1.36 rockers was still pulling hard when i'd back out of it around 5800-6000 rpm. then again i grew up with my dad owning 2 dragstrips and could drive a drag car before i could legally drive so some of it may be skill.


i've got oil pressure, oil temp, and cylinder head temp gauges and it runs same ranges as a stock 1600.

i wrecked it before getting it on the dyno but my guess is 120hp+.

but 2k is just gonna get you started....



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