TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:25 pm

I have trying to remove the oil pump in my 87 westfalia., 2.1 engine. Purchased pump puller tool. On the first try the cross broke off with minimum resistance. Poorly welded. Got it welded. This time the cross piece bent then cracked. Weld held. Soft metal! Now have welded on hardened steel cross piece with hopes it works. But it seems to me removal should not be that hard. Any that's, advice, experience with this problem?

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:12 pm

The input and output has to seal to the case, therefore the pump is really
smashed in there. Unless your trying to split the case, removal is very difficult
and should be to seal. Can I ask why you are trying to remove it? Most problems I've found with the pump are caused by the cover not properly spaced with the right gasket.

Geosoils wrote: I have trying to remove the oil pump in my 87 westfalia., 2.1 engine. Purchased pump puller tool. On the first try the cross broke off with minimum resistance. Poorly welded. Got it welded. This time the cross piece bent then cracked. Weld held. Soft metal! Now have welded on hardened steel cross piece with hopes it works. But it seems to me removal should not be that hard. Any that's, advice, experience with this problem?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:27 am

I'm changing because the oil pressure is low. I changed all switches and it improved some but not enough. It was about 20 and warning light would come on after high speed run and stay on a while. Revving up engine sometimes caused it to go off. Installing a larger pump.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:32 am

How many miles do you have on your rig? Factory engine with between 140 and 180K are notorious for stretching and breaking rod bolts. The only symptoms you will see before your engine explodes is low oil pressure at a hot idle. Trying to bump the pressure up only masks the problem and does nothing to stop the impending doom.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:41 am

Thank you for the info. The current engine was a replacement, not rebuilt, and total milage is unknown. Previous owner had it done. Sounds like I'm spinning my wheels replacing oil pump. Time for rebuilt engine?

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:59 am

Assuming the rod bolts were replaced when the engine was rebuilt, then the stretching and breaking of a bolt shouldn't be an issue. Hard to know what was done though. Check the clearance from the end of the gears to the pump cover, you may not want to use a gasket under the cover, but just use sealant. There are also specs on the length of the relief spring.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:03 am

I don't think this engine was rebuilt. Can the rods and bolts be replaced replaced to solve the problem? I'm think about just replacing the engine.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:58 am

You can replace the rod bolts without splitting the case. If you have clearance wear, the case will need to be split and the crankshaft machined. No way to tell without tearing into it though.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:21 am

Quote: I don't think this engine was rebuilt. Can the rods and bolts be replaced replaced to solve the problem? I'm think about just replacing the engine.

the question quickly becomes - replace the engine with what? another worn out one?

a set of reconditioned rods are pretty cheap ($110) : http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_679 - rod bearings/journals also not a lot (<$25). a main bearings set will cost you about $100 - piston rings while you're in there, gaskets, cam bearings.... i spent about $1800 to rebuild mine (parts probably $500, machine shop work about the same, tools, chemicals, etc) - and it took me 6 months (mostly because it was freezing out so i couldn't work on it - and the other reason is waiting for parts in the mail) http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=589769

but before you do anything drastic, you want to understand where your oil pressure has gone. it could be as simple as your oil pressure relief valve spring - or even simpler, wrong type of oil and/or filter. if it isn't a simple thing, then generally it is because the bearings are worn down and the oil is squirting out the sides. low pressure will mean other bearings aren't getting the lube they need and you have a nice race to the bottom going on.

so, if you checked the easy things (pressure relief spring, oil, filter) and want to check the engine, split the case, get the crank measured by a machine shop (and examine the condition of the old bearings) and then make the call on a rebuild. doing that and you're only another $100 or so in the hole for machine shop work. you can even try and measure the crank yourself if you have the right tools (micrometer)

Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:53 am

Thank you all for the advice and response. I have replaced oil 20w50, filter, pressure switches, but not spring. Will try that next. I would replace engine with a rebuild engine or rebuilt it myself.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:51 am

when I finally fixed the leaking oil pump cover gasket on my van, the oil pump practically fell out into my hands once the cover was off...I used a small smear of rtv between the pump and engine and same thing between the pump and cover and she hasn't lost one drop of oil in the last couple years :D

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:59 pm

Got mine off today after getting hardened steel cross piece welded on. Came right out. So we'll see what happens now. Again thanks for responses.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:41 pm

If you really want to put in a new pump, I would suggest putting in one that has the o-ring. I am going to replace mine in a few days. The CB performance pump I had in there right now is under sized. I notice that when I put it in during my engine rebuilt. It just slide in with minimal effort. I later found out if the oil pump is too loose, it will suck air in through the gaps when the engine is hot, not to mention pushing pressurized oil out. I tried machining in a groove 2mm wide ( my parting tool width ) and 050" deep. Using a 034 o-ring that need to be stretched to fit, I need to hammer it in when I try it out on my spare block and it is tight. I then remove it and there is no damage on the o-ring. So it seems like it is feasible to fit an o-ringed oil pump after the engine is closed up.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:16 pm

that sounds like an awful lot of work stevey88. why not just measure the endplay between the cover and the gears. more on that here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=269355

Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:08 pm

atomatom wrote: that sounds like an awful lot of work stevey88. why not just measure the endplay between the cover and the gears. more on that here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=269355

The o-ring has nothing to do with the end play. If you are sucking air in and leaking oil out between the pump and the case, a good end-ply will do nothing for you. The suction port and the pressure ( out going ) port are so close to the edge of the pump ( and the case ) so the only thing that seal them from the body is the clearance of the pump and the case. On my spare block, I measured the oil pump opening to be 70.060 mm and the two old stock oil pumps I have on hand measured 70.045 and 70.050mm. So there is a 0.010 - 0.015 mm clearance between the pump body and the case. Air can be sucked in and oil force out from this clearance. The other new CB performance pump I have measured 69.990mm so the clearance is 0.07mm ( 2.7 thou ) , this is a lot.

BTW, I purposely use a smaller o-ring so it is less likely get caught by the two ports on the case.

Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:57 pm

ah - sorry, i thought you were talking about the pump cover.

i sealed the back of mine with the paper gasket and a light dab of permatex aviation sealant on both sides of the gasket. no leaks. if you have the pump cover torqued down correctly, i believe it is the area with the gasket (square bit) that keeps it sealed, not the clearance between pump and case (round bit).

for the pump cover, i checked the clearance, and went without any gasket. the cb performance cover didn't work for me though - sanded down my stock cover.

Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:37 pm

OK, took the CB oil pump out, machined in the groove for the o-ring, put on the o-ring, smooth out the two oil holes on the block and put it back. Idle pressure increased from 11 psi to 18 psi when fully warmed up - after 30 minutes of driving on the freeway going to the hamfest, outside temperature is not high today, it is only 78F . Max. oil pressure is now a bit too high, it is now 60psi @ 3500rpm. I have to remove the shim that I put under the oil pressure relieve spring ( previously added to raise the oil pressure ) to lower it. Although it is a lot of work to R & R the oil pump, I am glad I did it. I also found out why my pump cover was leaking oil, too much sealant applied when I put the cover on the first time. The oil groove that allow the pump to suck oil back in was filled.

Keep in mind this is a rebuilt engine with 12K miles and a new oil pump that has too much clearance. So don't expect the same result on a tired engine.

A couple of weeks ago, I made a 3300 miles trip and my oil pressure was dropping to 30 psi @4000 rpm when I was climbing up a 9500 ft mountain pass with an ambient temperature of 95 degree. So I decided to make this change.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:31 am

Can I ask a silly question, why is low oil pressure an indication of your rod bolts going bad? I have a really strong 2.1 with good compression on all 4 with 220K on the odometer (heads replace at 45K but no bottom end work) and she will run at 70+ MPH (less any inclines) for as long as I have my foot down. So what does it mean that with a cool engine I have 40+ psi (yes I gave a gauge) and when when hot (oil viscosity thins) the pressure drops to 22 @ 3K & 30 @ 4K RPMs and then 10 psi at idle. So why can I not replace the pump with good conciseness that she won’t explode in a week. FYI I run Castrol 20-50 with Mann filter

Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:53 am

Low oil pressure does not automatically indicates a rod bolt going bad. Low pressure can be caused by incorrect oil grade, bad oil filter, worn oil pump, worn main or rod bearings. If you have a 2.1 with high mileage, then besides worn bearings, it is most likely the rod bolts are also stressed. So when the rod bolts of piston #3 ( the very end of the lubrication system ) went, you will find a new vent hole on top of your engine block. In your case, it is strange that you still have 10 psi when idling. What is your idle rpm? My now sold tin top with 116K miles has 11psi @ 950rpm and oil pressure never drop below 40psi when above 3K rpm. Replacing a oil pump may not buy you time as you don't know if the old oil pump is bad or not.

Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:40 am

Jake59 wrote: Can I ask a silly question, why is low oil pressure an indication of your rod bolts going bad?

When the bolts begin to loose their preload the oil clearance begins to increase meaning there is less backpressure being built up in the oil galleys. Well designed and lubricated journal bearings don't tend to wear much so if the oil pressure begins to drop it is a pretty good indicator that something is beginning to fail.