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Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:28 pm

Hi -

My Dad just bought a beautiful '65 Karmann Ghia and I'm trying to help him diagnose an distributor/timing issue. I think the car has the wrong distributor on it. The engine is a 1967 engine (H5024566) with a Bosch distributor (ZV/PAU 4 R 5).

I think the previous owner installed the wrong distributor or misaligned the position of the camshaft when assembling the engine.

It appears the timing was set using a timing mark that he painted 180 degrees opposite from TDC on the crank pulley. ??

There are three marks on the crankshaft pulley.

After looking at the Old Volks Home website...I leaned that the distributor I have is intended to be on a '61-'64 engine. (http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A6164)

Should this distributor work on a '67 engine? If it will not work, are the distributors listed on Old Volks Home website for the '67 engine the ones I should be looking for? I searched at car-part.com for distributors for a 1967 VW Karmann Ghia and it returned results from engines as early as '61. In which case, the Bosch distributor we have on it now should work.

I'm wondering if it's possible the engine was assembled incorrectly, such that the distributor, once installed, causes the rotor to be in the incorrect position when firing the first cylinder.

The interesting thing is...according to Chris Vallone at classicvwbugs.com (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=787INwvir24), the correct distributor, when installed, should show the rotor pointing at about 2:30 o'clock - back toward the physical location of the number one cylinder on the physical engine) at top dead center. Ours sits at nearly 12 o'clock - or about 45 degrees BTDC.

I think I confused myself just writing this. :) Any help would be appreciated. :)

Thanks!

Matt

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:21 pm

What Carburetor are you running here? That's actually more important than engine size or year.

The "fat-boy" 40HP distributor, as well as most of the vacuum-only advance distributors from the 1961-70 era often work OK when mixed and matched to other carbs from that era, provided the timing is set properly.

This is the correct alignment of the large cap 40HP distributor when the distributor drive gear is correctly installed:

If you have a 28PICT, 28PICT-1 or 30PICT-1 carburetor I think you'll be OK to use that distributor as well. 30PICT-2 or 30PICT-3, still probably OK as well.

-Andy

Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:51 am

Hi Andy - thanks for the reply!

I'm not yet sure which carb we have. Are there markings on it to determine which one it is? Which one should we have?

I know I've seen some posted conversation about Pict30's and Pic34. Is that what I'm looking for?

Thanks!

Matt

Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:55 am

The carburetor should be plainly marked on the left hand side. For instance, another photo of my 1962 bug, a 28 PICT carburetor:

And here's a 30PICT-1 (1966-67 carb)

Now, starting in 1964, DVG, the company that actually made these carbs, starting stamping a "modification state" number into the carburetor body. These identified variations within a carb series, and there were a lot of them for each carb - each one for a specific application or model. At first, the number was stamped into the bowl facing the fan shroud. Then in mid 1966 it was moved to the left side of the base flange, where it stayed thoughout the DVG/Solex era, except for in 1970 when it moved to the left side of the bowl.

I mention this because there were some variations on the 30PICT-1 - early ones didn't have a return spring on the throttle arm, and then in 1967, they had them set up differently, internally, for 1300 and 1500 applications. Here's some examples of this modification state number:

Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:04 pm

Hey -

Thanks again for the speedy reply! It is a 30 PICT-1. We'll look for the additional markings on the bowl or the flange.

Thanks!!

Matt

Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:58 pm

The R 5 distributor may work ok, but I am doubtful. The correct distributor is a 113 905 205 K. There are restored ones available here on The Samba. It is aluminum bodied rather than cast iron like the R 5.

The mark that is 180 from TDC is usually there to help identify the point for adjusting valves on cylinders 2 and 4. At least that's what I do. The distributor drive can be adjusted by removing the distributor and fuel pump rod. There is a tool commonly available to do this task.

Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:33 pm

I ran my 4R5 with a Bocar 30PICT-1 for many years, ran just fine, no problems.

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:03 pm

Thanks for all the feedback. Yeah, I looked thoroughly over the Old Volks Home site. There is a special section on at the end of the page of distributor capability for the old superseded numbers ("Models using VW 315-905-205B, Bosch 0231 137 031").

I noticed that the Distributor #0231 137 031 is a superseded number to the Bosch ZV/PAU 4R5 listed for 1961-1964 40 HP. It's also listed as a superseded "Can Use" distributor on 1965 40HP models. It's also listed as superseded to the 1966-1967 models with the 1300/1500 engine. So, that suggests to me that the distributor should actually work on all models from 1961-1967 - which is exactly what is suggested in the section at the very bottom of the page on Old Volks Home as I referenced above.

Having said that, I'm thinking the problem we may have is the distributor gear as Tasb suggested in the thread.

It's seems logical to me that if it was off a tooth, this may account for the issue we have with the rotor not pointing in the proper direction when the distributor is installed. Could that account for the experience we are having?

Thanks!

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:26 pm

Those "can use" listings were more like VW saying "we don't sell the old one anymore but this one will work" - Tasb made a fairly valid point, many times it's not the best thing to mix and match distributors. The vacuum-only era was more forgiving though, especially on single port engines. The vacuum plumbing inside the carburetors is similar throughout the era, well, with two tweaks at the end of the 28PICT era, a small extension pipe added to the upper advance drilling and the addition of a restriction in the vacuum nipple. I normally like to push for using the exact carb/distribuotr match if I can. Hell I run a 30PICT-1 on my Baja bug with a 113905205K distributor. But on my 62, (1385cc big bore 40HP), I gave you a real world experience of using a 30PICT-1 with the ZVPAU4R5 distributor. Most of the 1960s distributors and carbs will work together fairly well.

Now your issue, you never gave any particulars. If the vacuum canister fails, then doesn't matter what distributor or carb you have, it'll run like crap.

Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:37 pm

The 315 905 205 B distributor is VW's attempt at a universal distributor as glutamodo suggests. It is a clone of the 113 905 205 K though. As such it is best matched to the 30 PICT carburetors.

Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:52 pm

Replaced the 205K vacuum only distributor in my stock 1500 single port with a NOS German 009 with a compufire ignition module. I timed it at 32 degrees BTDC max advance which gave me 10 degrees BTDC at idle. I made no adjustments to the carb. The car runs great and has no flat spot issues. Perhaps a good german 009 or 019 would be your best bet?