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Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:39 pm

Hey guys just a question on thoughts about the empi bug engine into a bus mount. I have been ridiculed a bnit about it and I need an honest opinion. before you make a post read the rest of mine. I have done some engine lightening. I will be running j tubes and non doghouse with 33mm fan. I will be useing an external oil cooler mounted to the opposite side of the battery bed to remove oil cooler weight and tranfer some oil weight too. other than that it is a stock 1600 dp. I was thinking this may not be enouph, so I thought shooting some helicoil inserts into the oil pump studs would strengthen the studs and prevent stripping. I will be using my empi hardware locknuts. I am confident that I will prolong engine life. what do you think is it a lost hope or have I beaten the stereotype. let me know.

Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:03 pm

Oil pump adaptor mounts work fine as long as you aren't drag racing or dropping the clutch trying to do burnouts, engine weight doesn't matter, it's the driving style that counts.
Make sure you put the spacer plate in the recess on the pump cover and if the mount doesn't sit flat on it grind the high spots off the edges of the turned up lip around the cover until it does.

Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:37 pm

What year Bus are you referring to?

Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:02 pm

Helicoils in aluminum are junk. Soft easily distorted metal using a flexible coil thread insert. Think about it. Think about what is used for a case saver. Solid wall steel insert. Use a thickwall coarse outer thread insert. Ray

Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:11 pm

Thanks Ray. It did cross my mind but the downside is the drill hole will be larger which means it's prone to being off a bit and the studs might not fit the pump. it suck too because a machine shop could do it if my case werent already assembled. I wonder if they sell iron helicoils. I know the helicoil inserts are not that strong, but they are stronger then aluminum. time serts are better material on the inserts, but the downside is the insert tool does not straiten the thread at the end when it hits the bottom. idk

Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:19 am

If the holes are stripped don't do anything to them, just run the studs they give you with the adapter, I've run a stock 1600dp this way since I was 17, it's never caused an issue. Drive the bus steady and like it's supposed to be driven, and it will be fine, no need to lighten the engine.

Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:28 am

andrewvwclassic wrote: Thanks Ray. It did cross my mind but the downside is the drill hole will be larger which means it's prone to being off a bit and the studs might not fit the pump. it suck too because a machine shop could do it if my case werent already assembled. I wonder if they sell iron helicoils. I know the helicoil inserts are not that strong, but they are stronger then aluminum. time serts are better material on the inserts, but the downside is the insert tool does not straiten the thread at the end when it hits the bottom. idk

Helicoils are steel....and they are great products....to go in cast iron or steel....or in a pinch...hardened aluminum alloys.

The problem is that the helicoil is a spring. Its spreadable. As soft metals distort from torque....the coil can start to distort with them. It then shears the thread lands off....literally cracks them on the thread cross section. The most common issue is time and heat cycling. If you torque the bolt or stud to close to its maximum for the base material the helicoil is inserted into....that torque increases as the metal expands. Do this a few hundred times or more and the metal cracks.
All of this is also dependent upon the original thread fit...how tight or loose.

A solid thread insert is better. I don't use the timesert because of the installation tool and locking mechanism. Its a great product....but not good for shallow blind holes like you are faced with.

The EZ-Lok is MUCH better http://www.ezlok.com/Home/index.html

You want a thin wall coarse outer thread with the correct inner thread. The coarse outer thread means it has a wider cross section across the thread lands in both the inert and the aluminum so they are less prone to cracking the aluminum from load.
These inserts come with a micro encapsulated epoxy in the threads...which works well....or you can remove that epoxy with solvent and wire wheel and use loktite.

I think your studs are 8mm/ 1.25 correct? the best EZ lock part # that I have found where the surrounding aluminum is not very thick is this one

http://www.catalogds.com/db/service?domain=ezlok&a...uct=319_m8

It has an 8mm x 1.25 inner thread and a 7/16"-14 outer thread. thats about 11.11mm outer thread.
The metric/metric version is the heavy wall....and is awesome if you can use it. I use them on type 4 heads for the exhaust studs. They are 8mm-1.25 inner thread and 12mm-1.75 outer thread.

http://www.catalogds.com/db/service?domain=ezlok&a...duct=450_8

There is a nice tool for screw these in...but its not required. You can use a large flat blade screwdriver.

DO NOT use the stainless steel inserts. Not what you need.

Drilling the bore to tap can be difficult. In a pinch...I have had better luck in risky places by using a dremel tool with an aluminum oxide grinding tool at moderate speed to carefully...checking with a caliper...increase the diameter. get it large enough to use a dremel 1/4" sanding drum with coarse grit to finish it and the hole will stay pretty round. Leave it just a few thousandths tight and the tap will make it round with care.

The best way is to put the block on a drill press. Then drilling the hole is not an issue. But with a hand drill...it can be iffy.

You will need to buy two taps in my opinion. Its nice to start with a tapered tap....but that will not bottom properly. You can then use a bottoming tap....but even then I grind the bottoming tap to remove all taper to take the threads deeper.

Ideally....you should drill the hole deep enough if you can to screw the thread insert in far enough that its about 1/2 thread below flush on the outer end. Then you can peen the surrounding aluminum into the installation slots...and it cannot start backing out even if the epoxy or loktite gets loose. Also....its very good to tap the hole so that you stop screwing the insert in about 1/2-3/4 thread from the bottom of the bore. You want to screw the insert in until its tight. You don't want it "floating" in the threads. It could start turning in either direction if you do.

Before you start....take the studs you will be installing and screw them into the insert until they are flush with the bottom side and no more. Then with a punch....distort the outer thread on the stud so that if the stud ever starts turning inward as you tighten the nut on it...it cannot ever screw further in. If it does....it will hit the bottom of the bore....and literally jack the threaded insert out of the bore....destroying the outer threads in the aluminum.
This is also why you want to stop the tapping for the insert in the aluminum so there is just a hair of space underneath the insert in the bore after it bottoms in the aluminum threads...just in case the stud turns in another 1/4 or 1/2 turn when you torque it. You dot want the stud touching the bottom of the bore at all. Heat expansion alone could cause damage if the stud is touching the bottom.
After that you may not have enough surrounding aluminum to put in the next larger insert size. This is the biggest mistake that most people make with any brand of inert.
Ray

Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:35 pm

I decided to run the mount with the adaptor studs. I have been over and over the idea of strengthening the studs and have decided that if it eventually needs repair to run a helicoil, my stud holes are tapped all the way threw the case and putting a helicoil in will give it no backing to snug the stud in. the measurement is about 25mm from the front of the stud hole to the back so if needed, if it strips, I will run a m8 1.23x 2d helicoil 16mm should give the stud enough room to snug on the tapper of the new studs, along with 727 loctite, that come with the kit. I would be weary to do it now since the benefits aren't that great and my case is assembled. I would hate to risk getting shrapnel in the case. Using an ez lok insert will not extend enough will not have backing will be hard to tap ect. the machine shop said they use time serts which would actually in my case be the best thing since the insert has a rim on the top to snug it. I have to do a 25,000 mile service to change bearings any way I can probably put the thread repairs in then.

Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:41 pm

andrewvwclassic wrote: I decided to just run the mount with the adaptor studs. i have been over and over the idea of strengthening the studs and have decided that if it eventually needs repair to run a helicoil, my stud holes are tapped all the way threw the case and putting a helicoil in will give it no backing to snug the stud in. the measurement is about 25mm from the fron of the stud hole to the back so if needed if it strips i will run a m8 1.23x 2d helicoil 16mm should give the stud enough room to snug on the tapper of the new studs, along with 727 loctite, that come with the kit. I would be weary to do it now since the benefits aren't that great and my case is assembled. I would hate to risk getting shrapnel in the case. Using an ez lok insert will not extend enough will not have backing will be hard to tap ect. the machine shop said they use time serts which would actually in my case be the best thing since the insert has a rim on the top to snug it. i have to do a 25,000 mile service to change bearings any way I can probably put the thread repairs in then.

Your machine shop is lazy. The issue with a time sert in a bore like that is if it ever rotates. ...and it can...that crimp in the end that holds it in will destroy the threads you made for it....and you may not have enough metal to do it again.
Also....no deep enough with EZ lok?...get a long one and grind to size if they have one or simply use two. Its not that hard.
But...any of them will work. Helicoils suck for that repair. Dont use whats convenient......or in this case it sounds like its what they have on hand......use what is the best solution. Ray

Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:37 pm

I agree Ray they are not doing the repair correctly. the ideal way would definitely be an ez lock with a capped back in my case and a length that fits the studs, but I have to use the resources that I have. It is impossible to make someone do a job the way you want it done. People are steadfast in there ways and usually do things sub-par as a business practice to milk more cash, but that's the world we live in. Anyway I'm tempted to get a floor press and drill it myself and do the repair right. never know could work out well lol.

Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:10 am

So you are putting an external oil cooler within the engine compartment to pour heat out of the engine and back into the same air that the cooling fan takes in?
Hmmm

Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:28 pm

andrewvwclassic wrote: I agree Ray they are not doing the repair correctly. the ideal way would definitely be an ez lock with a capped back in my case and a length that fits the studs, but I have to use the resources that I have. It is impossible to make someone do a job the way you want it done. People are steadfast in there ways and usually do things sub-par as a business practice to milk more cash, but that's the world we live in. Anyway I'm tempted to get a floor press and drill it myself and do the repair right. never know could work out well lol.

Cool! I know where you are coming from!

When you start shopping for an affordable, limited/low usage drill press Pm me and Ill post a bunch in the bodywork and shop technique section.
I have a limited budget too...and when I started researching to buy a drill press last year...I was literally appalled at the quality that was available for any price range short of out of my budget.

Harbor freights higher priced one is the only one they sell worth buying and even it needs some tweaks to work on certain things but is heavy duty. Their 20 inch floor mount is decent but at $550 I did not have the budget at the time. The 17" model had too many things that sucked.

What sears and home depot had was horrible...either no guts or not quality or no features.

I ended up with a Porter Cable from Lowes for about $325...and it has just enough of everything (stroke length, bit diameter, angle setting, morse taper chuck, laser, solid build).
In the past I have been lucky enough to do these types of repairs in the shop where ever I worked. It was about time to buy a drill press so now I can do these types of repairs and a lot more.

Ray

Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:43 pm

vwible wrote: So you are putting an external oil cooler within the engine compartment to pour heat out of the engine and back into the same air that the cooling fan takes in?
Hmmm

I don't think that is bad if he cuts a hole where the spare battery should go so the positive air coming into the bay can pass over the cooler and exit the bay. But.........no one has told him you should NEVER remove the stock cooler. If you want an external cooler you need to port the case or use an in/out pump. Since you are using a oil pump mount I'm not sure if a in/out pump will work. The stock cooler isn't heavy and if you remove it you will be doing more harm then good to the engine.

Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:55 pm

richparker wrote: vwible wrote: So you are putting an external oil cooler within the engine compartment to pour heat out of the engine and back into the same air that the cooling fan takes in?
Hmmm

I don't think that is bad if he cuts a hole where the spare battery should go so the positive air coming into the bay can pass over the cooler and exit the bay. But.........no one has told him you should NEVER remove the stock cooler. If you want an external cooler you need to port the case or use an in/out pump. Since you are using a oil pump mount I'm not sure if a in/out pump will work. The stock cooler isn't heavy and if you remove it you will be doing more harm then good to the engine.

X3, I know this is not question related, but that is a bad place for a cooler. How are you routing the lines? Are you full flowed?

Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:30 pm

I was gonna run an external cooler but changed my mind. It is just the bug mount that is throwing me off. I was building the motor to put into a bug, but came across some money so decided to step it up to a bus. I had planned on getting a Mesa 72 pass with a fan already on it. I had thought of the concept of the cooler not getting air over it. I am not running a full flow setup, but the mesa would account for the lack of air from the stock fan. the "spare" battery area was the best place i could find for it. I am not the kind of guy that wants his motor to last forever. I like to work on the motors. I have no problem with getting only 50,000 miles out of it before i switch to an as41 case. I am only 29 and have many good years ahead. I was not prepared for the responsibility of the switch to a bus, I have never owned a bus before. I have so much further to go this is just the beginning. I still need glass for the the side windows windshield and cab windows. I have rust eaten into the windshield area I need to graft metal there. my front axle was rusted threw on the center pin mount, I need a new front axle. I have no brakes, need a lot of drive train parts. need an instrument cluster, front seats, sliding door fell off the hinges yesterday. found out it was the roller bearing on the top hinge broke, need an entire slider because the release hooks part were busted too. I have done most of the bondo work and the body is starting to look healthier. the front floor is rusted threw here and there and I have to weld over some sheet metal. No game changers yet though other than finding glass might be hard, but I know now never to buy a project without good glass that is the hard thing with these buses.

Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:14 pm

I would think a well built - blue printed and balanced motor that was driven propper would last a long time in a bus.