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Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:50 pm

My bus was running fine this morning. I just went to go pick up the kids from school. Bus started a little hard, ran rough for a few seconds and died. Now it will not start. The ALT and OIL lights come on. Headlights work, etc., but it will not start. No click, just silence.

Battery is reading 12.8V

I did replace the alternator with Colin two days ago.

Checked connections at the battery, coil and starter and all appear to be OK.

I just do not know where to start and in what order to check things out.

Thanks.

UPDATE : Please see my last post below dated 9/10.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:54 pm

Try gently tapping on the starter with a hammer.
and or get a not so precious screw driver and making
sure the bus is in neutral and parking brake on
"jump" from the battery terminal on the starter to
the spade connection and make the starter turn.
Sounds like you may have a 'flat spot' in the starter
or could be ignition switch or ground cable issues.
Just need to do some basic diagnosis.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:13 pm

Tapped starter with hammer; no change.

I can get it started by jumping across the starter terminals, but it does not want to stay running more than a few seconds.

What next? Ignition switch? Points?

Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:29 pm

Ground strap on trans?

Also does it have a kill switch or any other theft devices. I had a toggle kill switch for a while and it wouldn't click sometimes. Removed the switch and never had the problem again.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:52 pm

tizzfishin wrote: Ground strap on trans?

Also does it have a kill switch or any other theft devices. I had a toggle kill switch for a while and it wouldn't click sometimes. Removed the switch and never had the problem again.

Yes, ground strap clean and tight.

No kill switch that I have ever seen.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:33 pm

Sounds like Ignition switch. If you are able to jump it with a screwdriver then its likely upstream of your engine. Either way its a good time to clean all your connections, and check grounds.

Before you pull the Steering column apart (if you do follow this thread).....

http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/bclausen/How_to_files/IgnSw/

First do you have a spare ignition switch? Even the Cheapo ones as a spare(invest in good one though,chinese as a backup), Reach under the column and pull the plug out of the back of the switch and plug in the new one. Put your key to the 'on position' and use a screwdriver gently turn the plastic ignition piece and see if it starts.

If it does then either your switch is bad or something in the key tumbler is.

If it doesnt want to start after that, then go over what you did with colin and your alternator, make sure there is nothing obviously grounding out or loose with the wiring

Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:42 pm

aerosurfer wrote: Sounds like Ignition switch. If you are able to jump it with a screwdriver then its likely upstream of your engine. Either way its a good time to clean all your connections, and check grounds.

Before you pull the Steering column apart (if you do follow this thread).....

http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/bclausen/How_to_files/IgnSw/

First do you have a spare ignition switch? Even the Cheapo ones as a spare(invest in good one though,chinese as a backup), Reach under the column and pull the plug out of the back of the switch and plug in the new one. Put your key to the 'on position' and use a screwdriver gently turn the plastic ignition piece and see if it starts.

If it does then either your switch is bad or something in the key tumbler is.

If it doesnt want to start after that, then go over what you did with colin and your alternator, make sure there is nothing obviously grounding out or loose with the wiring

I got it started. I went back and reseated the VR and wiggled some of the wires. It started right up. So, now I am not sure if it was just the connection or I damaged a wire(s) wrestling with them during removal/installation.

Also, idle was still very low. I turned it up a bit, but not sure if that was the right thing or I am just masking something.

New alternator only seems to be putting out 13.2 V at idle and 13.9 with RPMs up.

I have a spare VR, cheap piece of crap compared to the original still in the bus. I will see if that makes a difference.

I started to read that Ratwell thread earlier in case it was the ignition switch. Thanks for the tip on trying out the new one before taking the entire steering column apart.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:50 pm

aopisa wrote:

I started to read that Ratwell thread earlier in case it was the ignition switch. Thanks for the tip on trying out the new one before taking the entire steering column apart.

Glad it hopefully was something simple. Yeah the spare switch in the glove box will get you moving again if it ever dies on the road, you need the Key for the steering wheel lock, but the switch is what carries the electrics to run the car.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:01 pm

aopisa wrote:

Also, idle was still very low. I turned it up a bit, but not sure if that was the right thing or I am just masking something.

If the Idle wasn't low before, then assume the same thing as the electrical, You knocked something loose. Check your Vacuum lines and hoses. Use Carb cleaner, Starting fluid or Propane around all the air joints, gaskets, and connection and see if there is a leak.

Start simple, It worked before; therefore......

Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:42 pm

aerosurfer wrote: aopisa wrote:

I started to read that Ratwell thread earlier in case it was the ignition switch. Thanks for the tip on trying out the new one before taking the entire steering column apart.

Glad it hopefully was something simple. Yeah the spare switch in the glove box will get you moving again if it ever dies on the road, you need the Key for the steering wheel lock, but the switch is what carries the electrics to run the car.

I figured it had to be something simple as it was running pretty great earlier today and for a good while now. I just hope it was that simple and not one of those things where you think you fixed it, but it was just some kind of weird coincidence and the problem returns with a vengeance.

Idle was a bit low before at about 770, but almost to stalling levels once I got it started again. Did a very thorough vacuum leak check twice just a few days ago, but it is possible something got knocked or worked it's way loose.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:08 pm

aopisa wrote:
I got it started. I went back and reseated the VR and wiggled some of the wires. It started right up. So, now I am not sure if it was just the connection or I damaged a wire(s) wrestling with them during removal/installation.

Also, idle was still very low. I turned it up a bit, but not sure if that was the right thing or I am just masking something.

New alternator only seems to be putting out 13.2 V at idle and 13.9 with RPMs up.

I have a spare VR, cheap piece of crap compared to the original still in the bus. I will see if that makes a difference.

I started to read that Ratwell thread earlier in case it was the ignition switch. Thanks for the tip on trying out the new one before taking the entire steering column apart.
When you wiggled you possibly reconnected the non connected VR, now the alternator is working it's butt off trying to recharge the battery, that requires horsepower so the idle may be lower. 13.2-13.9 isn't bad for trying to recharge a discharged battery.
A battery can still show 12.8 volts static when it's low, it's what happens when you load it that matters.
Unplug the VR while idling and see how much the idle increases.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:22 pm

busdaddy wrote: aopisa wrote:
I got it started. I went back and reseated the VR and wiggled some of the wires. It started right up. So, now I am not sure if it was just the connection or I damaged a wire(s) wrestling with them during removal/installation.

Also, idle was still very low. I turned it up a bit, but not sure if that was the right thing or I am just masking something.

New alternator only seems to be putting out 13.2 V at idle and 13.9 with RPMs up.

I have a spare VR, cheap piece of crap compared to the original still in the bus. I will see if that makes a difference.

I started to read that Ratwell thread earlier in case it was the ignition switch. Thanks for the tip on trying out the new one before taking the entire steering column apart.
When you wiggled you possibly reconnected the non connected VR, now the alternator is working it's butt off trying to recharge the battery, that requires horsepower so the idle may be lower. 13.2-13.9 isn't bad for trying to recharge a discharged battery.
A battery can still show 12.8 volts static when it's low, it's what happens when you load it that matters.
Unplug the VR while idling and see how much the idle increases.

It occurred to me that the alternator may be working to get the battery caught up after so many screwdriver starter starts.

Too dark now, but I will check out your suggestion tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:20 pm

Call colin

Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:38 pm

aeromech wrote: Call colin

Already corresponded with him via PM on his site. I got it to start in the meantime. I will see what follow up he may have for me.

Thanks.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:25 pm

I am still frustrated by the fact the bus will not start when warm. Yes, I have determined that problem exists when the bus is warm. Weird thing is that I can pretty much restart it immediately after I turn it off. If I let it sit for a few minutes, it will not turnover or start. I just checked and cleaned (again) all the connections to the starter. I even cleaned the little braided ground strap coming off of the solenoid. I let it warm up for quite some time, off, on, off, on, off, on. Hey, I did it. Took it for a test drive around the neighborhood to get it even warmer. Back in the driveway, off, on, off, on. That was easy.

Took the dogs for a walk to let the bus sit for five minutes. Went to start it, nothing, just the battery and oil lights glowing at me. No turnover, no click.

15 minutes passed....

Starts right up. Back it up the driveway, turn it off and it starts right up. Try again and no go. Push started it by letting it roll down the driveway.

It may be just a coincidence that this is a new problem that just happened to crop up now, but I can't help but think I did something to cause this during the recent alternator installation.

Thank you.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:38 pm

To me, if the starter doesn't engage or turn-over when it's hot after a drive but then engages after things cool down then it would make me suspect the starter solenoid. When it gets hot, something looses contact in there and is requiring more voltage to get it to work (jumping across the contacts with a screw driver).

If it was mine, I'd get an amp gauge that goes over the thick red positive wire off the battery. I'd see how many amps the starter is pulling cold vs. when it's hot. You could place a jumper wire on the positive wire coming from the ignition switch to the starter and see if you see any difference in volts/amps from hot or cold.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Do you have a hot start? you might want one...

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:45 pm

wcfvw69 wrote: To me, if the starter doesn't engage or turn-over when it's hot after a drive but then engages after things cool down then it would make me suspect the starter solenoid. When it gets hot, something looses contact in there and is requiring more voltage to get it to work (jumping across the contacts with a screw driver).

If it was mine, I'd get an amp gauge that goes over the thick red positive wire off the battery. I'd see how many amps the starter is pulling cold vs. when it's hot. You could place a jumper wire on the positive wire coming from the ignition switch to the starter and see if you see any difference in volts/amps from hot or cold.

Where do I hook up the gauge? Can I use my multi-meter? What values am I looking for?

Thank you.

Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:47 pm

ChrisFred wrote: Do you have a hot start? you might want one...

Yes, I have a hot start relay. Sorry, should have mentioned that.

Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:59 pm

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be the ignition switch. I first thought it was the solenoid or some other part being heat soaked because I couldn't start when hot but had no probs at other times. Then it became hard to start at any time, with multiple turns of the key before it would kick over. I have just installed a push button start and it starts every time now! :D