TheSamba.com :: View topic - Suddenly popping out of 4th gear after reseal*Update*

Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:38 pm

SO, for those who've read my thread below, I took out the transmission and engine to reseal them both and replace a few parts. The bus is a 70' with an 002 transmission that has been overhauled before. It was painted black.

The transmission was leaking pretty good out the nose cone seal and I went ahead and replaced it and the brass busing, the two side gear seals and main shaft seals. NOTE: when I first pulled the engine, I was supporting the transmission with a small jack that leaked down overnight. It bent the rear coupler but I saw no other damage from it hanging down. I replaced the coupler.

I also had the shift rods out and replaced the bushings throughout. Driving the bus after the work, I adjusted the shift plate and got all four gears while it wasn't running. Shifting into 4th at speed, it pops right back out but then will go in and stay. I've adjusted the shift plate forward and back, side to side and nothing appears to help it NOT pop out of fourth gear.

I searched and read other "pops out of fourth gear" threads and they all say it's internal issues in the trans. What's odd to me is I NEVER had this issue before removing the transmission to reseal it and to replace the shift coupler bushings.

What am I missing here? Seems odd that 4th would start doing this right after it was removed?

Thoughts? Thanks

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:03 pm

Did you do anything with the donut or sector bracket inside the nose cone?, any exciting moments when you were first removing it from the bus like for instance dropping the rear of the transmission? Where did you get the front guide bushing for the shifter and how did it fit? If you put it in 4th and disconnect the coupler does the grub screw hole still line up?

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:12 pm

busdaddy wrote: Did you do anything with the donut or sector bracket inside the nose cone?, any exciting moments when you were first removing it from the bus like for instance dropping the rear of the transmission? Where did you get the front guide bushing for the shifter and how did it fit? If you put it in 4th and disconnect the coupler does the grub screw hole still line up?

Hey BD,

No, I didn't remove the nose cone on the transmission. I wasn't having any issues other than the leaks. Yes, when I removed the transmission, it did fall a short distance (maybe 6") to the ground while I was lifting it out. :cry:
I purchased the front bushing for the shift rod from WW and it fit perfectly. The nose cone brass bushing and seal was purchased from a VW trans shop in PHX.

I haven't tried putting it in fourth to see if the grub screw lines up. Should I center the shift plate, put it in 4th and look?

The only other thing I did install was the nose cone rubber boot. The transmission didn't have one before. It's fairly compressed when installed though I was able to put the grub screw onto the hockey stick w/out too much effort. Thinking about this further, going into 4 would pull the coupler away from the boot so that's probably not it..

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:18 pm

Yeah, the issue won't be the boot but could be something preventing the shift rod from going forward enough.
Was the shift rod disconnected when the trans fell?
I don't think moving the shift plate for the test will matter since you've already tried it driving.
Another possible scenario is the bushing is too long or driven in too deep and it's preventing the hocky stick from moving out enough to engage the detent.

Did you switch oils when you refilled it?, like maybe something synthetic?

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:30 pm

busdaddy wrote: Yeah, the issue won't be the boot but could be something preventing the shift rod from going forward enough.
Was the shift rod disconnected when the trans fell?
I don't think moving the shift plate for the test will matter since you've already tried it driving.
Another possible scenario is the bushing is too long or driven in too deep and it's preventing the hocky stick from moving out enough to engage the detent.

Did you switch oils when you refilled it?, like maybe something synthetic?

The coupler and drive shafts were connected when the small jack supporting the transmission let down overnight. It bent the rubber coupling cage, which I straightened out before reinstalling it. The WW plastic shift coupler was identical to the original in regards to how thick the end was sticking out of the shift rod up front. The rear coupler is the original VW coupler cage with new rubber inserts.

I didn't change the fluid of the transmission yet. It leaked a small amount while it was out and I topped it off with some GL-4 that I had. I was planning on taking it for a long spin, then coming back and draining the transmission oil and putting in new oil.

It "feels" like it is engaging 4th gear fully. I've moved the shifter assembly all the way forward and all the way back and it really makes no difference. I simply can't believe this transmission decided to start doing this exactly when I pulled it to reseal it.. SSSooo frustrated..

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:37 pm

Hmmm..... unless you have the whole drivetrain assy slid too far forward on the mounts the only other possible cause I can think of is that sagged jack incident. Sorry to say that requires another engine pull to look at.

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:52 pm

busdaddy wrote: Hmmm..... unless you have the whole drivetrain assy slid too far forward on the mounts the only other possible cause I can think of is that sagged jack incident. Sorry to say that requires another engine pull to look at.

I appreciate your thoughts BD. So, pull the transmission cone and do an inspection? What would I be looking for specifically? I wonder why this effects only 4th gear vs. say 2nd gear as well?

On a bright side, the driving I did do showed no leaks from the transmission!! LMAO.. I have to laugh....!!

Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:15 pm

wcfvw69 wrote: What would I be looking for specifically? I wonder why this effects only 4th gear vs. say 2nd gear as well?
I can't say positively that's the cause but since it dropped good enough to bent the coupler it could have also bent that bracket that's broken in the pic, they do crack and yours may be pre weakened by a partial crack.

If you've exhausted all the external fixes you may just have to look inside.

Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:25 pm

busdaddy wrote: wcfvw69 wrote: What would I be looking for specifically? I wonder why this effects only 4th gear vs. say 2nd gear as well?
I can't say positively that's the cause but since it dropped good enough to bent the coupler it could have also bent that bracket that's broken in the pic, they do crack and yours may be pre weakened by a partial crack.

If you've exhausted all the external fixes you may just have to look inside.

Gotcha.. Thanks again for you thoughts BD. I appreciate it.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:21 am

Ok, so I consulted with Bus Daddy, Bruce and the local transmission guy for opinions. All gave great suggestions on what to check before taking it in for an overhaul.

So, my nephew and I yanked the engine and trans back out this am. Pretty happy as I used my air tools and had them both on the ground in under an hour. I learned from the 1st pull.

I removed the nose cone and sadly, didn't see anything obvious that would cause this popping out of gear suddenly. I did see that some welded (poorly) on the nose cone where the bearing rides. It makes me wonder what kind of other quality of work was done to this transmission while it was apart last time.

Here are the pics-

Here's the nose cone welded up pic. I'm not a transmission guy but that doesn't look like quality work?

Anyone see anything out of whack? Again, the symptoms were the trans would go into fourth then pop back out and then sometimes stay in place. It NEVER did this before I removed the transmission to reseal it.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:27 am

If there is enough material left on the nose cone. You can have it milled and install one of these plates.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1565835
http://www.weddleindustries.com/sites/weddleindustries.com/files/tech-info/9372-INST.pdf

http://www.transworks.biz/techinfo.html

Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:48 am

SGKent and others will tell you that when the above ring gets battered it allows the bearing it pushes on to move forward and then you'll pop out of fourth. At this point maybe you should just replace the nose cone.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:06 pm

aeromech wrote:

SGKent and others will tell you that when the above ring gets battered it allows the bearing it pushes on to move forward and then you'll pop out of fourth. At this point maybe you should just replace the nose cone.

Rick Long is the one who explained it to me. The main bearing allows the mainshaft to move enough to where the gear doesn't fully engage. On that one, just best to replace the nose cone. knowing what I know - that steel plate should be in every trans. VW never intended for these buses to last as many miles as they have. They never saw the obsession coming that the public has with air cooled VW vehicles.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:59 pm

Thanks everyone for your thoughts/opinions. I simply don't know what to do here. I know this transmission has been gone thru but judging by the layers of dirt/crud and gunk, it's had lot of miles put on it since it was rebuilt. It's painted black and has locking nuts on all the studs. So, I have no idea how many miles are on this rebuilt trans. It leaked like a sieve from the axle seals and hockey stick seal. If the previous builder did this kind of crappy repair to the nose cone, I wonder what else he might of short changed inside it?

Here are some more pics. It appears they welded it then filed it fairly flat. If I lay this straight edge across it, it's fairly flush all the way across. I get what SGKENT is saying about it moving back but I don't see much gap.

Do I risk buying another nose cone, reinstalling it and hope it corrects it or do I bite the bullet and have it gone thru so I know it's good now? The transmission worked perfect before I pulled it to seal it up. No grinding, noises or popping out of gear..

What would you do?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:32 pm

What color was the fluid when you drained it the first time? Did it have any metal flakes in it? If it was a nice color with not to many flakes I would just run it as it is. I bought a used transaxle from this site without knowing anything about it, he just said it was good. When I drained it th fluid looked like chocolate milk with water and sand in it. I said "oh shit"!!! I've flushed the fluid several times in the first thousound miles and it's been great! I did have the nose cone rebuilt and had the side seals replaced because they were leaking. I asked about having the whole thing rebuild and he told me "if it feels smooth and shifts smooth, don't". So...I would just do the cone and get back on the road.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:43 pm

No matter what I'd replace that nose cone. I'm assuming you can find one for $50. There are a couple good tranny guys you could call about a nose cone and also pick their brains on your issue.

Transworks - El Cajon Ca
KCR Transmissions - Riverside, ca

Either place is mostly a one man show and should help you.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:41 pm

Tcash wrote: If there is enough material left on the nose cone. You can have it milled and install one of these plates.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1565835
http://www.weddleindustries.com/sites/weddleindustries.com/files/tech-info/9372-INST.pdf

http://www.transworks.biz/techinfo.html

An absolute must anytime you rebuild a stock 002 trans.

Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:11 pm

I decided to take the transmission to Arizona Transaxle exchange. I just wasn't feeling good about this transmission. I didn't want to replace the nose cone and still wonder if it would fix it and then wonder what else wasn't done right the last time it was 'rebuilt'. When I dropped it off, the guys were super nice and explained what they do, what was probably causing the issue, etc.

I had drained it and they offered to remove the bell housing while I was there to check the ring and pinion condition. Those items passed inspection but he checked the retaining ring and pinion bearing. The retaining ring was loose and the entire pinion bearing was spinning in the case. The options are to sleeve the case or just replace it with a good used one. Since it's in a stock bus, he said to just replace that portion of the case with a good used one vs. repairing the case which would cost quite a bit more.

The owner Bill was off but his two tech's were there and I can't compliment them enough. Both guys were super nice and spent quite a bit of time showing me sliders, gears and the other innards of the transmissions, what they do extra to insure it's good when it's given back, etc.

The other bad news is the shop is buried with work and it could be up to 6 weeks before i get it back. I'm ok with that as I would rather wait for quality work and this shop has a great reputation.

I will report back their futher findings once they have it completely torn down.

Thanks again for everyones thoughts.

Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:26 pm

Hmm...., sounds like it was trying to tell you something, better you caught that now, the wait sucks but the peace of mind later will be worth it.

Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:56 pm

busdaddy wrote: Hmm...., sounds like it was trying to tell you something, better you caught that now, the wait sucks but the peace of mind later will be worth it.

That was exactly my thoughts as well BD. I want to make this bus as reliable as possible. After he showed me the loose retainer and the pinion bearing spinning in the case, I obviously felt better w/my decision to take it in for an overhaul. That and I was suspicious of the quality of the last overhaul when I saw the nose cone.