TheSamba.com :: View topic - Fighting with myself over a '64 vs '66-'67?

Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:48 pm

So I had my heart set on a '66 or '67 sunroof Beetle in beige. But I found this red '64 sunroof beetle with a good interior and a newly rebuilt original motor for about $5000. Paint is badly oxidized though. So I'm trying to talk myself into the '64. Cause I'm sicker than hell of looking for a sunroof '66-'67.

I've read some of the specs that show what changed in each year. Like once it got to '66:

Larger window.
Heat controls on tunnel. And better heater?
Rear seatback converts to platform.
Thinner seats. Better legroom in backseat.
Swivel mounted sunvisors.
Center dash defrost.
Emergency blinker switch.
Bigger engine. 1200cc to 1500cc IIRC.
Dual brake system.
12 volt on '67.

But what else would I be giving up or getting myself into if I bought a '64 instead of a '66 or '67? Parts harder to find? Is the 1200cc just to small for freeway driving?

I'm just debating myself here. I really want a sunroof beetle. And this '64 I found has a sunroof and pop outs. And the right color interior - white. But the paint is red. And I really don't like red. I really wanted beige of one color or another. The 1200cc has been rebuilt recently. And the interior is in really nice shape. But the paint is badly oxidized. But lastly, it's a good deal.

Not an earth shattering good deal. But 5k type good deal. For a car with a nice interior and rebuilt original engine. Just the paint sucks IMHO. Body is straight. I could probably get it buffed out and it would improve alot. But again. I really don't like red. And had my heart set on beige. And can't afford a 4k paint job. And don't have the facilities to do it myself.

I'm just really getting tired of looking for a sunroof bug with either a shitty interior that I can fix up or a shot motor that I can have replaced. Cause if I find all three - interior, paint and motor. It's probably gonna be out of my price range ($7000-$8000). Or so it seems.

So what else will I be giving up if I get the '64 instead of waiting for a sunroof '66-'67?

(Do VW's always do this to your mind? LOL! I feel like I'm on crack looking for what I want. I feel like it's gonna be a long trek. I think I need therapy!)

Thank you, sincerely, if you read this far.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:13 am

There is:

Different suspension in both 66 and 67.

1300 original stock engine in 66. 1500 in 67 in America, at least.

Defrost vent in 66 and up (not really a factor for you in El Segundo, CA)

One year only interior in 66

I forget if 67 had the old style headlights like 64 or the new like 68.

Also, different door handles in 66 and 67.

That's what I know, from the top of my head.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:21 am

Sometimes patience is the best path. If your heart is set on a 66-67, you may never be truly satisfied with a 64. Wait and the right one will come along.
Other additions to the 66-67 are ball joint front suspension and z bar on the 67. The 67 has one year only front fenders that are 68 style upright headlights.
You could always repaint the 64, but there is something beautiful to me about buffed out paint and a car that shows its age.
Have patience and keep looking, it will come in time.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:57 am

Even though I own a '67, a '64 sunroof would be great to have.
It being a one year only car with that steel sunroof, there are pluses and minus's to be said about either year.
Guess it all depends on what your ultimate end goal for the car might be[/i]

Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:05 am

Moab762 said:
"(Do VW's always do this to your mind? LOL! I feel like I'm on crack looking for what I want. I feel like it's gonna be a long trek. I think I need therapy!)"

Yes, VWs do that to your mind and your soul. Sometimes it is hard to focus on other things in life when the ACVW is calling to you.

Enjoy the drug........... :D

Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:36 am

I would go for the 64 sunroof all day long. Only year with the small side windows and steel sunroof. If the car is in good shape otherwise, have it repainted. But check out some well done cars in red, almost all colors look good on a VW as long as it is fresh and polished. Oxidised dull ruby red, I agree, looks like a turd, but with a fresh, color sanded top coat, detailed wheels and running boards, who can say it doesn't look like a million dollars?

Wether you will notice any difference between the new and old front suspension, I doubt it, and with a limited mileage per year, you won't be replacing those king pin bushes too often. Go '64!

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:59 am

I'm from the " one of each " school

I just modified the 66 a little to suit my needs :twisted:

Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:03 am

I waited a long long time looking for a '66 Sedan. I wasn't prepared to settle for anything else. I probably would eventually have ended up with a different model but I stuck it out until finding my current '66 Sedan last February. If I had ended up buying something else I know I would have regretted it every time I saw a '66.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:13 am

I am a 58-64 Beetle guy....
but 1966 is one of the last best years made....IMO..

Dont settle.. there are plenty of these out there... now go find "the one"..
besides you are in Californ I A... .. thats an easy one to find out there..

.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:02 am

I have both a 61 and a 66 Bug. I like the smaller window look of the early bugs a bit more than latter bugs, the 1200 motor is low power for todays driving, If you do a lot of high speed commuting you may want a bigger motor, but even my big 1300 is not that powerful.

if you really want an old Bug for daily driving, freeway commutes , or lots of mountains, I would suggest get an early bug and install a 1600 DP motor, I did that in my 61 Bug and she flies down the freeway now. Much more drivable!!!

If your looking mainly a weekend pleasure drive car any VW motor is fine.

if you heart is really set on a particular car, keep looking, if a compromise is ok with you go for it, chances are you will like any Bug, they are great cars and grow on you. it is not like you can drive up to a VW dealer and order the car you want these days

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:54 am

I had my heart set on a 67 for a long time, but never really came across one I could afford to buy at any given time. Eventually, I found mine and I'm really happy, but a nice 64, 65 or 66 would have given me the same result. Just my personal 2 cents...

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:00 am

Thanks for all the encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it. I think I will keep looking for my '66-'67 sunroof. My first two bugs were a '66 IIRC and a 73 Super Beetle. But I never really looked for them. They just sort of came my way. The first my father had and lent me. The second my father in law at the time suggested I buy.

But all of the comments brought up a couple questions for me:

1) Can I have a 1300cc or a 1500cc original motor bored out to a 1600cc? Or is that a whole new block?
2) If the '64 sunroof is steel. What is the '66-'67?
3) How different are the suspensions in the '66 and '67. And which is better?
4) What are Z bars?
5) My end goal is a daily driver. Not a weekend car. I assume the '66 or '67 would be a better option for that. Considering the motors.

I keep looking in CA and all over the US. But it seems like people in CA either have junk that I don't want. Or a cal look bug. Which I don't want. Or think their stuff is worth way more than it is. I'm sure CA does not have a monopoly on that last comment. But it seems that way.

The funny thing is the first car I ran across was the perfect car with only 22k miles on it. But at the moment I didn't have the cash. I missed out on a bus like that back in the early 90's. Best one I saw was the first one out of the gait and I was gunshy. As I didn't know enough about buses.

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate it. Gave me a second wind. I'll keep looking.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:08 am

moab762 wrote:
But all of the comments brought up a couple questions for me: .

1) Can I have a 1300cc or a 1500cc original motor bored out to a 1600cc? Or is that a whole new block?

Yes and no..
85.5 cylinders will fit the 1300 case but not the 1300 heads (requires head boring)
85.5 cylinders will directly fit the 1500 case and 1500 heads

2) If the '64 sunroof is steel. What is the '66-'67?

If its a Deluxe Sunroof Beetle 1964 and newer it will be a steel crank sliding sunroof
If its a 1964-67 Standard Sunroof Beetle it will be a sliding rag top.

3) How different are the suspensions in the '66 and '67. And which is better?

1966-67 front is the same
1967 rear has softer torsion springs a 2 inch wider rear track and an overload "Z" bar spring.

Better is merely an opinion..
The 1967 rear suspension is supposed to be safer due to its design to help the inherent swing axle over steer.

4) What are Z bars?

Overload rear spring found on 67-68 swing axle US equipped Beetles and later in other countries

5) My end goal is a daily driver. Not a weekend car. I assume the '66 or '67 would be a better option for that. Considering the motors.

Yes..

IMO the 1966 fits the older style and looks and either 66 or 67 with a 1600 engine is a very nice daily driving car.

An even better option would be to look for a 69-72 as a better daily driver.. The rear IRS and CV joint suspension is much more driver friendly.

.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:13 am

moab762 wrote: Thanks for all the encouragement. I sincerely appreciate it. I think I will keep looking for my '66-'67 sunroof. My first two bugs were a '66 IIRC and a 73 Super Beetle. But I never really looked for them. They just sort of came my way. The first my father had and lent me. The second my father in law at the time suggested I buy.

But all of the comments brought up a couple questions for me:

1) Can I have a 1300cc or a 1500cc original motor bored out to a 1600cc? Or is that a whole new block?
2) If the '64 sunroof is steel. What is the '66-'67?
3) How different are the suspensions in the '66 and '67. And which is better?
4) What are Z bars?
5) My end goal is a daily driver. Not a weekend car. I assume the '66 or '67 would be a better option for that. Considering the motors.

I keep looking in CA and all over the US. But it seems like people in CA either have junk that I don't want. Or a cal look bug. Which I don't want. Or think their stuff is worth way more than it is. I'm sure CA does not have a monopoly on that last comment. But it seems that way.

The funny thing is the first car I ran across was the perfect car with only 22k miles on it. But at the moment I didn't have the cash. I missed out on a bus like that back in the early 90's. Best one I saw was the first one out of the gait and I was gunshy. As I didn't know enough about buses.

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate it. Gave me a second wind. I'll keep looking.

My '66 is a daily driver with a 1600 engine in it. It runs like a Singer sowing machine and gets around 26-27 mpg in town. I would have liked to have an original 1300 engine but they are hard to come by. I think the 1600 only has different heads and jugs. Someone with more engine knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong. The few '67's ride better than a '66. They have a different rear suspension.

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:57 pm

I don't see any problem going with the 64.
The 67 WAS a really good year but any of the mechanical improvements can be swapped between them, and done better too.

A lot of the early cars already have been converted to 12 volts and have later engines and trans swapped in, and already worn out and ready to be swapped again!!!

the 1300 and 1500 engines are kinda cool, but since the cylinders are hard to find they end up being re-built into 1600 singleports.....which is probably for the best.

For a driver..........only real reason you'd want to get a newer one is for the IRS rear suspension, balljoint front supension, and then can use factory disk brakes. yes it really IS better BUT.........all or nothin IMO.
You have to go to a 1970-newer, and is it worth it?

The OLD suspension has it's charms too.
They can be made to handle, they are durable, they CAN ride soft........just not all at the same time.

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:50 am

modok wrote:

The OLD suspension has it's charms too.
They can be made to handle, they are durable, they CAN ride soft........just not all at the same time.

IMO the best combination..... A 58-64 body with a ball joint and IRS (CV Joint) swap ..... using wide 5 lug wheels of course.

Better handling, better ride, better alignment, and old looks... :wink:

.

Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:49 am

moab, selecting any Beetle for DD duty is a brave move. To be more visible in today's hurried traffic and superficial driver attention, I recommend making the following additions to any DD Beetle:
-3-point inertia reel safety belts that you really wear on every drive
-3rd brake light, mounted as high as possible (such as along bottom of rear window)
-STRONG horn activated by the stock steering wheel horn ring
-halogen headlamps; possibly now even the modern LED conversions that you turn on all the time even in daylight for others to see you better
-LED taillights and turn signals
-European amber-topped rear taillight lenses for better visibility of the blinkers

Having the swiveling sun visors ('65 on) for your early morning or setting sun is very helpful, as well as the additional center dash vent for more effective windshield demisting.

With all those considerations, a '66 would be the second choice, especially if it is still 6V. But the '67 would be the first choice, for engine, 12V and suspension reasons already covered here.

Engines: You can also buy 88mm diameter pistons/cylinders which fit into the original 1300-1500-1600 crankcase without any machining, but the heads have to be bored even larger than for an 85.5mm cylinder. Then you;d end up with 1679cc, being 1/3 more displacement than a 1300. Even if you did not consider an engine upgrade, you should learn to drive your Beetle at 65-70mph on highways and get a feel for how it runs at those speeds. It can do those speeds all day, even the '66 with a stock, well tuned 1300.

shortride, you have a SPECTACULAR '66! Is it an original well-maintained car, or a thorough and correct restoration?

volkswagnut, I also would pursue your approach with the body swap, though I think that is far beyond the ability of the OP. I've done such a swap 3x. As to the 5-bolt wheels, have you seen these as an alternative? Porsche 356 B cooling holes (always associated with VW 5-bolt brakes) on a 4-bolt wheel? 5.5" wide and 25mm offset (per inquiry with the vendor). http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1707376

cyclehobby, I've admired your '67 at recent ClassicVWBugs' open houses. Hope you had fun with it on Chris' foliage cruise last week. His site has a shot of the cruise with your car in the center of the line-up, as we were at the top of Perkins Memorial Drive/Bear Mtn. I was in the light green '77 Beetle and took the shot. Here's the link to the photo- http://www.classicvwbugs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fallcruise2014.jpg

Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:12 am

Rome wrote:
volkswagnut, I also would pursue your approach with the body swap, though I think that is far beyond the ability of the OP. I've done such a swap 3x. As to the 5-bolt wheels, have you seen these as an alternative? Porsche 356 B cooling holes (always associated with VW 5-bolt brakes) on a 4-bolt wheel? 5.5" wide and 25mm offset (per inquiry with the vendor). http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1707376

You've taken my statement a little out of the context it was directed to..
I wasnt advising the OP to do a conversion whether it be body swap or pan alterations.
I was merely stating..what my opinion is as the best looking and driving combination..

And FWIW.. I"d still rather convert 4 lug cars to the wide 5 lugs.. and NOT use stock looking steel wheels.. :wink:

.

.

Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:05 pm

The main question I see here: Is it better to have a 47 year old car as a daily driver or a 50 year old car.

Regardless on how big the improvements are between 1964 AND 1967 you have to remember these cars do not even come CLOSE to what modern technology / safety will give you.

In my opinion, when I considered using my restored 62 as my daily driver, I did so knowing it was a 48 year old car (this was back in 2009 / 2010 at the time). When I had my accident no amount of rear suspension or transmission and engine combo would have caused me less pain / scaring. Sure if I'd had a late Super I MIGHT have been a tad safer with a padded dash, but that isn't the point.

If you're going to go "old school" and use an older beetle for a daily first pick the year you like best no matter the real reason. After that upgrade as much as you can / want to make it SAFE for driving (brakes, engine, transmission, shoulder belts, etc etc etc) and then enjoy it. But always keep in mind these are almost 50+ year old cars and there will always be risk involved. As newer cars become safer I've noticed drivers getting less cautious about how they drive. Its all one big roll of the dice as it were.

Says the guy contemplating making his 63 bone stock bug his daily....*sigh*

For me? I like the earlier 64 and previous models. They just look better in my opinion. Anyone can stuff a 1600+ into an older beetle with a little patience.