TheSamba.com :: View topic - Fuel Injector Setup

Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:00 pm

So i've been toying around with using the OEM VW type 3 fuel injection intake manifold and throttle body setup for use with an updated fuel injection system. My goal was to use these for engine sizes ranging from 1500 to 1776cc NA and 1500cc to 1900cc turbo. This setup will use a single throttle body which makes it easy to get a good vacuum signal for a megasquirt or microsquirt ecu.

I've come up with a pretty quick and easy way of installing a set of bosch 4 hole fuel injectors onto the OEM VW type 3 fuel injection intake manifold. Installation is a snap since there are two main pieces. The lower hardware is attached to the intake manifold. The upper hardware (fuel rail and one rectangle bracket) is removable by undoing two nylock nuts. Here are some pics of what i've come up with. Remember, these are just prototypes to see if it was possible.

Bottom view of the fuel rail and mounting hardware. The spacer is not shown. The socket head that is visible is basically used as a stud so that it will be easy to line up and mount the fuel rail to the intake manifold.

Plan view of fuel rail installed onto the intake manifold.

Bottom view of fuel rail installed onto the intake manifold.

Isometric view of the fuel rail installed onto the intake manifold.

Basically with this system, all that is removed are the two M6 studs. Everything is just bolt on. If anyone is interested, I can make many more sets since I have all the tools and measurements. I'm shooting for a price set point of $400 shipped with the fuel rails, brackets, spacers, hardware, and injectors. I will have several injector choices and price will go up or down depending on the injector chosen. I will also provide the option of including an oring AN6 fitting for the ends, just like how it is pictured (may not be same color).

Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:37 pm

Nice!
Just for the record..... You can also simply trim the plastic bosses on the injector inlets and use the original injector fuel pipes, hose stubs and hose clamps to install any new injector into the original system. Takes about 20 minutes to do a set.
just sayin..... Ray

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:27 pm

Its not possible to use that with these injectors because there's nothing to hold the injectors onto the manifold. The fuel rail is used to hold the injectors in place. You could use the older larger (but newer than d-jet injectors) denso injectors with the pintle caps with that method, but not these newer bosch injectors. These are the Bosch ev6/ev14 injectors that have a much better spray pattern and atomization of fuel.

Can you show me a picture of what you're talking about, because I may be missing something in my head...

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:32 pm

Your approach looks familiar. Nice!

Max

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:49 pm

Max Welton wrote: Your approach looks familiar. Nice!

Max

Yes! Your original design was the inspiration. Easy to install was my goal. I wish the spacing on the M6 studs were further apart, which would make it so much easier to attach this fuel rail.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:52 am

Very nice work, this greatly improves the practicality of using MS with high Z injectors by providing such an easy installation.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:29 pm

If there is interest, I can make a complete ready to install kit with the microsquirt. The only thing you will have to supply is the TPS for whatever throttle body you will use.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:37 pm

supersuk wrote: Its not possible to use that with these injectors because there's nothing to hold the injectors onto the manifold. The fuel rail is used to hold the injectors in place. You could use the older larger (but newer than d-jet injectors) denso injectors with the pintle caps with that method, but not these newer bosch injectors. These are the Bosch ev6/ev14 injectors that have a much better spray pattern and atomization of fuel.

Can you show me a picture of what you're talking about, because I may be missing something in my head...

Ah...gotcha...no rib on the injectors to use the original hasp and grommet.

But....an external grommet ring or holder to mount to the EV6/14 injectors to use the stock style hasp and grommet should be cake to fabricate. Its a lot less fabrication and works just as well.

Also...in my experience....anytime you can get rid of them...get rid of the pintle caps. yes...they are good protection against bumps but they also promote rust around the pintle from fuel drips and water vapor...especially in cars that are not driven every day.
I have tossed literally hundreds of injectors of all types, systems and ages because of this problem.

Late model and EV6/14 small tip injectors also benefit with better fit on type 3/4 D and L jet manifolds from dumping the pintle caps and installing a CIS injector seal. Tighter fit, better seal, better centering.

I will see if I have a late injector that has been trimmed to fit fuel hose and can post a picture

But i do like what you have done! Nice work!
Ray

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:27 pm

That is slick. Nice work!!

What do those injectors originally come out of?? That's cool that they fit the OEM manifold like stock.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:05 pm

Ray - It is possible, but you'd have to clamp the body of the injector for that to happen. There are no ridges on these injectors and have a smooth surface this doesn't change up or down.

Nate - The injectors are used on many vehicles. There is no specific model that these are used for. The gray ones pictured are 48lb injectors for my turbo install. The injectors don't fit exactly into the hole, it is a little loose. However, the oring helps to seal it as long as you provide enough downward pressure to squeeze out the oring a little.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:28 pm

supersuk wrote: Ray - It is possible, but you'd have to clamp the body of the injector for that to happen. There are no ridges on these injectors and have a smooth surface this doesn't change up or down.

Nate - The injectors are used on many vehicles. There is no specific model that these are used for. The gray ones pictured are 48lb injectors for my turbo install. The injectors don't fit exactly into the hole, it is a little loose. However, the oring helps to seal it as long as you provide enough downward pressure to squeeze out the oring a little.

Try the CIS injector seal....really. Remove the pintle cap and standard o-ring and install a CIS o-ring. It fits very tight. Its larger than the hole. Try the green viton ones used on Saab 900.

Injector seal vacuum leaks are a big problem on any system that is using a MAP. The vacuum in the ports is higher than that in the plenum. If the seals barely fit and need pressure to squeeze them down....then they are only sealing on an edge. Not much surtace area to fight vibration, heat expansion and seal shrinkage/hardening. An oversized seal forced in with pressure will be better. Ray

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:44 pm

Ray - I will look into that tonight. Hopefully my local parts store carries those green viton orings from the saab 900 injector.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:49 pm

what about a rail with the standard retaining clips?

hard to see but you can make it out the style of rail on this manx.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:50 pm

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:51 pm

Nate M. wrote: That is slick. Nice work!!

What do those injectors originally come out of?? That's cool that they fit the OEM manifold like stock.

they should, the holes have been 14mm forever just about.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:57 pm

Vlad - Clipping the fuel injector into the upper rail is not the problem. Holding the fuel injector onto the intake manifold is the problem. If you use the older style injectors then it can be easily adapted using the OEM hold downs and the method that ray suggested. However, if you want to use the better newer skinny injectors, then there is no way to secure them into the intake manifold. This is why I made the fuel rails and brackets to hold down the injectors using the OEM mounting points without any modifications other than removing the studs. Easy for the DIYer to install with minimal tools.

Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:16 pm

yeah I get that, but would be better clipped in, that way the pressure wont try to pry your assembly apart, possible giving more freedom for the mounting not having to make it so brick shithouse in construction.

most OEM cars only have the rail held down by little sheet metal tab on the rail, because they is no stress other than the vac sucking on the injectors and general vibration.

oh and its safer. injectors can blow out if the bolts come loose, but wont if they are clipped potentially saving a car fire. EFI dumps an enormous amount of fuel at pressure unrestricted. In few sec they can dump half a L of fuel easy.

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:58 am

Vlad - I do have clips designed, but am waiting for the laser cutter to make it for me. They will be made of stainless steel and go in between the rail and bracket.

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:06 pm

ok cool. should be interesting.

Whats the injector PN ?

Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:51 pm

The part number is 0280156048. However, these have been modified to flow 500cc.