TheSamba.com :: View topic - PO is for previous owner and BM is for best mechanic

Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:04 pm

Have you ever said something that should have been considered blatantly obvious just to be looked at like you have two heads?

Or, maybe someone said something so ludicrous that you thought they were joking but, they had the look of the most serious person on the planet?

Well, this is an exercise along those lines.

I am hoping a few experienced airheads can help set the record straight on a few questions.

#1; The reason the spark plug insert came out with the spark plug is because the spark plug was taken out while the engine was hot.
TRUE OR FALSE.

#2; An engine will not run with a crooked spark plug insert because there would be lose of compression.
TRUE OR FALSE.

#3; The spark plugs in pictures #1 and #2 are all straight and true, like they would come from the factory.
TRUE OR FALSE.

#4; The Torque Meister tool will work on any size gland nut if you just use a socket with it.
TRUE OR FALSE.

#5; A small tear in the flywheel oil seal (screw driver is pointing to tear at 3 o'clock in the picture) will leak and throw out oil in 360 degrees around the seal not just drip oil straight down like in this picture.
TRUE OR FALSE.

also just curious;
Who makes the best VW bus mechanic?
The guy who talks VWs and drives everywhere he goes in a late model full size pickup?
The guy who has one or more buses as his daily driver?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:27 pm

#! False: Taking out a spark plug while the engine is hot is not a problem. Putting a spark plug in a hot engine will cause problems. I cannot say if an insert will come out with the spark plug on a hot engine. Many Sambans recommend timesert instead of helicoil.

#2 False: The engine will run on three cylinders.
#3 False
#4 ?
#5 ?

I am the PO and I had a good BM this morning.

Aloha
tp

Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:10 pm

these are weird question akin to will you agree with me that a zebra is white with black stripes instead of black with white stripes.

if a spark plug is properly threaded and coated with anti-seize it will come out hot. Hot is not the best time to pull a plug however, especially on a plug that has been in for awhile. Cool is always better but I have pulled many a hot spark plug to read it. Likewise it is a common practice in racing to warm an engine up with a used set of plugs, and use a special set for the actual race. Those plugs are pulled hot and replaced cold in that situation and it has been done that way over and over since before any of us were born. That said - when a plug is put in dry, and carbon forms on it, one has to pull that carbon back through the threads. It causes the threads to gall and that will destroy the threads. Always use anti-seize on the plug threads when they go into an aluminum head. Then learn to stop the second resistance is encountered, and go a turn back in then out until resistance, then stop and repeat again.

Realistically, every spark plug hole is crooked. The angle will always vary by a fraction of a degree. Whether the plug seals depends on how crooked it is. The question of whether the cert stays or not is what the crush is and what was used on it when it was installed. Also was it peened for example. And, if someone tries to pull a plug out with lots of carbon on it the cert will probably come too.

ANY defect in the seal where it seals to the flywheel will toss oil all over the back of the flywheel. That oil will come out, sling onto the bell housing, and drip straight down between the engine and transmission. You will see traces of it on the engine side of the flywheel and all over the inside of the bellhousing.

Anyone who is putting a gland nut back on needs one of these if they want to be sure it is torqued correctly. The number is 253 ft lbs. Spare me the discussion of a 126.5 pound man standing on the side of one foot 24" from the center of the nut to save the cost of buying a torque wrench. That works for me as well as picking half eaten lunches out of the dumpster to save on food bills. Use the right tools.

Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:21 pm

#1; Neither. The threads with the least coefficient of static friction will break loose first. Then as long as the kinetic friction remains lower than the static friction of the other threads, the first loose piece will continue. The plug or the thread could be the culprit; you need to decide why. If your plugs stick out even half a thread past the insert, they could get a carbon buildup on the threads and get jammed in the insert. Right then you'll pull the insert out. Yes metal changes with heat, but metals respond to heat at different rates. So how do you KNOW that one or the other was heated properly or improperly?

#2; False. The engine can run. I just tore my 44k mile motor down, and it ran every one of those miles with a crooked #4 plug. I ended up stripping the plug threads out with my compression tester because I forgot it was re-threaded crooked. :? The plug(s) will show compression gasses escaping as a brown/black stain on the side of the plug. I had 135-132-130-128 compression in June, which was almost 40k on my "crooked" plug engine.

#3; Neither. - old incorrect reasoning removed.
EDIT: I didn't see the vertical tilt; I was looking for sideways tilt like mine. Who cares if they're welded and drilled back slightly off like that? Maybe if you're SGKent and tenths of a second matter on the track, but on the open road you won't feel a difference there in a 57hp engine. What matters is the sealing ability of the plug/washer/head surface and combustion chamber. The shade-tree test is to torque a new plug down (cold) then remove it and observe the sealing washer. It will have a thinner and thinker section if the holes are indeed crooked. A new plug washer would seal my plug 100%, but if I reused a plug washer, the leak showed up.

#4; There are other size gland nuts than 36mm? Maybe I'm not understanding the question.

#5; Sorta both. The leak will cause oil to drip in that spot, then the flywheel doing it's job will throw the oil around for you free of charge. What a bargain! :lol: Who installed that seal? Anyone who can install a leak-free seal could have seen that hole. :roll:

RedBrick wrote:
Who makes the best VW bus mechanic?
You.

Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:55 pm

Quote: Maybe if you're SGKent and tenths of a second matter on the track,

Probably not. As long as it seals and doesn't hit a piston or valve the effect is non-measureable. The bird poo that fell on the back of the car probably slows the car down more... .

Does that mean one should lower their standards - absolutely not. Always aim for the best - worst you can do if you miss is be close.

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:56 am

Thing some people say;

#1; The reason the spark plug insert came out with the spark plug is because the spark plug was taken out while the engine was hot.

This is what the mechanic told me when I showed him pictures of the insert coming out.

I do not work on "hot" engines myself. I have done so in emergencies and 'always' get burned.

There was no carbon on the spark plug. The insert just screwed out with the plug.

I had never heard of inserts coming out when the engine is "hot". Seems like I should have been told by the person paid to put it in. At any rate the engine was out of the car and long cold before I discovered the issue.

#2; An engine will not run with a crooked spark plug insert because there would be lose of compression.

This is what the mechanic told me when I showed him pictures of the spark plug being crooked because the insert is crooked.

I know the engine runs with this crooked plug insert. The issue I have is, I paid to have an insert put in - I did not know 'crooked' inserts was an option for some people. I was not told there was an issue with the plug insert. I find it hard to believe that someone installing a plug insert would not look at their work, not see it crooked and not care that the wrench is hitting the intake bolt. And last but not least is the spark plug is right on top of one of the intake manifold bolts. I have had the engine out so many times I have managed to keep good plugs in it but the idea of taking that plug out and putting it back in, with the insert coming out with it is just a little more than I dare.

#3; The spark plugs in pictures #1 and #2 are all straight and true, (like they would come from the factory).

This is what the 'mechanic' who put the plug insert in said while looking at those pictures.

#4; The Torque Meister tool will work on any size gland nut if you just use a socket with it.

This is what the 'mechanic' said when I told him the Torque Meister would not fit the over sized gland nut he installed.

#5; A small tear in the flywheel oil seal (screw driver is pointing to tear at 3 o'clock in the picture flywheel seal tear at 3 o'clock) will leak and throw out oil in 360 degrees around the seal not just drip oil straight down (see also picture flywheel seal leak).

This is what the 'mechanic' said while looking at those pictures.

That is what the area looked like when I took it apart. The next time I do a video.

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:03 am

Arguing with a mechanic over points like (almost none of which are TRUE/FALSE questions) isn't going to be productive. It will be like arguing with SWMBO - your head might tell you you are winning, but .....

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:24 am

Who put the insert in?

Aloha
tp

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:33 am

If the plug is threaded in as crooked as the one shown the sealing ring will not seal and you will get gases moving up the threads. You may not get enough leakage to see when doing a compression test but the plug will see additional heat while not being able to shed heat as well and will thus run hotter than the other plugs. This will likely shorten plug life and may cause detonation and other hot running problems in that cylinder.

Since it appears you have the engine out at this time fixing the threads right seems like the thing to do, while as for the seal you can get a new one including the cost of shipping for less than $20.

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:16 pm

Tom Powell wrote: Who put the insert in?

Aloha
tp

Bugoholics, Pasadena, Texas
bugoholics.com

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:08 pm

RedBrick wrote: Tom Powell wrote: Who put the insert in?

Aloha
tp

Bugoholics, Pasadena, Texas
bugoholics.com

Have them pay for the repair. They do not do the repair because they have already demonstrated non-competence. You need a good shop.

The repair is to rebore and put in a BigSert. This is an oversized Timesert used to repair stripped timesert repairs.

The oolthat cuts the hole, either a drill or milling cutter, has an integral flycutter and for a timesert, two of them to cut a step for the timesert head. This ensures the sealing surface and the bore are dead normal---and the plug will seal perfectly. But the whole thing can be done at an angle so the plug sits at some angle and hits something else. If Frank did it in the back room with a worn bolt-up jug...well. This work should be done by a precision machine shop that knows their stuff. Costs more but you get the results.

I have some heads on another vehicle that I had dual plugged. This involves milling a bore through the fins, then cutting the bore and seating surface and threading the bore. And getting all the angles right. I paid $100 or so to have a pair of heads done. I have another set of heads that some PO tried to do themselves, I suspect with a drill press. They tried to salvage it with PC7 and scraps of sheetmetal (they bored through pushrod tubes) but the heads are ruined.

Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:00 am

Thanks PITApan, this is news to me, 'BigSert', I will look into any close by shops who can do that. I really wanted to keep the heads a pair. Auto Linea heads 8 years old but not many miles.

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:03 pm

Henry here from Bugoholics in Pasadena. Here's my side of this story:

Ralph, also known as 'Redbrick', had me rebuild his 1600cc engine approximately 4 months after another shop rebuilt it. I offered him a low price because he was very frustrated with all of the problems that he was having with his engine. I felt bad for him and now I'm paying for it. For $1,859.00, I rebuilt his engine with quality parts and he was happy. I even sand blasted, primered, and painted his engine tin and he was elated with the work I did. Just go look at his feedback from 2008. He was delighted that I helped him and was generous. I even gave a 6 month/ 6,000 mile warranty. About 3 months later, he e-mailed me saying that he had a pesky oil leak coming from #3 case saver. I did not install any case savers on his engine. The guy who rebuilt the engine before me installed them. After sending him an e-mail telling him to bring it back in, I didn't hear anything more from him until at least 4 years later when I was served papers notifying me that he was suing me in DISTRICT COURT in Harris county for a sum of more than $3,000.00. Here is what he sued me for:

1. I installed a "non-stock" gland nut (38mm) on his engine which was supposed to be a stock engine. He even sued for the price of his "torque meister" tool that he couldn't use because he didn't do his research before purchasing it. I even put the 38mm gland nut in the contract that he signed.

2. The spark plug insert was supposedly crooked. He took a picture of the plug insert out of the engine. He could have easily cross threaded it back in. He never complained about anything except it being crooked. No leaks of fuel, oil, or compression. Either way, he never told me about it. How am I supposed to fix something if I don't know about it?

3. Rear main seal: if you look at his pictures, you can tell that the "5 year old oil leak" is not coming from the rear main seal.

After almost 2 years of sending ridiculous court related letters back and forth, he requested to go to mediation. In mediation, he specifically told the mediator that he drove his van with the SAME ENGINE that I had built, more the 5 years prior, from Louisiana to Houston with no problems. In an attempt to get a thorn out of my side, I offered him $800.00. He turned it down and stormed out of the mediators office because he demanded $1,700.00 for his troubles. Approximately a month later, we had a scheduled docket call one week before trial was set. Ralph did not show up and the case was dismissed.

Never once, before the law suit, did he ever complain about anything except the oil leak from the case saver. I even told him to bring the van or engine to me so that I could fix it. What more was I supposed to do? He didn't even bring it back for his first complimentary valve setting, oil change, and inspection. He didn't tell me about the spark plug insert, the rear main seal, or the "non-stock" gland nut that was IN THE CONTRACT THAT HE SIGNED.

What my wife and I believe he was doing is, in my wife's words, "throwing spaghetti on the wall trying to get something to stick".

It's so hard to believe that someone would deliberately try to ruin someone's business after so much was done to try to please them. I am a business owner, but I am also a guy trying to provide for his family, like almost everyone else on here. I stand by my work and wish more people would stand by their word.

I'm thinking that he didn't show up to the docket call because he saw my evidence against him. Before I built this engine, he asked me to get some evidence against the other guy who rebuilt his engine. I should have known, not to work for the guy...

BUYER AND SELLER BEWARE OF THIS GUY. He's looking to get something for nothing.

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:26 pm

Henry,
I feel your pain. I wish we all had a crystal ball and could easily identify the good customers from the bad customers. My engine builder had a similar experience recently. Somehow, the customers car got it's $9k paint job scratched during the engine installation. The shop got blamed and gave the guy back all his engine rebuild money in order to avoid going through all the legal crap. Turns out I know the customer and have lent him tools in the past. Tools he didn't return when promised and he's now burnt his bridges with me. I'm actually looking forward to the next time I run into him.

Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:47 pm

True or False.

Your 74 Bus originally came with a Porsche motor.

All ACVW's are called Bugs.

You can swap parts from a 82 911 Porsche to a 73 Convertible Ghia.

All Bus owners are Hippies.

Are Hippies even a bad thing

Running ATF in your engine between oil changes is a good thing.

Parts from JCWhittney are far superior to EMPI.

Everything you read on the internet is true.

Rebuilding your engine from several unknown condition engines is just as good as rebuilding it with new parts.

German door seals are the best.

Are people assholes?