TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:08 pm

OK - before everyone Flame's me about Empi, I want to say that these are customer supplied parts. The customer went the cheap route and brought me a box full of Empi parts for a 2276. I was wanting to know does anyone have positive feed back from the Empi FK44 and 30mm with hole Lifters? I have never used them myself but I have also not seen any Threads about mass failures as with other setups. Any real experience with this product would be appreciated.

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:54 pm

The shop I used to work at used many sets of the lifters, and never had an issue. I have about 20k on a 30mm set with the hole in a street/strip 1776. The cams are too new to have any real info. Any cam related failures I have read about have been directly related to lifter failures. I would say use the cam, and lifters. You are the builder, and you are responsible for the end product. Don't build the engine if you don't want to use the components, or tell the customer you won't be responsible for any cam related issues if things go south. Any other parts from your customers Empi "kit", like the case, crank, rods, and chromoly flywheel I would use without hesitation. If your running an aggressive valve spring, I would probably use cam gears from Bugpack, Scat, or Magnum.

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:59 pm

Maybe you don't hear about any failure because not too many people use them , I dnt know of anyone

Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:03 pm

Oh , theres someone

Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:12 pm

I've used empi internals without problems, but not their cams. I pitched a set of their gears because , well, they looked like shit. I wouldn't use them. Do a correct break in of the motor and send the customer on his way. I wouldn't offer any warrantee on customer supplied parts if it's done through your shop unless it's related to a problem with building the motor. Cheap customers get what they pay for.

Sat Feb 14, 2015 8:22 pm

I've built many engines for my friend's shop. He has a strict policy that he only warranties parts he supplies. A customer is welcome to supply their own parts but if there is a problem related to it the customer is responsible for the cost of parts and labor to fix it.

I carefully inspect the parts and if they fail my inspection, I have a long talk with the customer and explain the risk involved.

I once had a customer supply new bearing dowels, they looked to be cut from bar stock. I explained that if a $1 part failed it could cost $$$$ to fix. He allowed me to source genuine VW dowels.

You as the engine builder need to talk to the customer and explain your experiences. And then put it in writing.

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:44 pm

raul arrese wrote: Maybe you don't hear about any failure because not too many people use them , I dnt know of anyone
You are only a ‘Show and Shine make it pretty’ guy, I do not value you opinion at all. Empi sells Ten’s on thousands of this
product every year not just ONE.

Thanks for the other input, I only warranty the workmanship not customer supplied parts but I do try to steer them in the correct direction. You can only do so much, most VW owners are on a cheap budget they want 200 HP for about $200

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:52 pm

Some "ill will" was caused by empi copying engle too closely.
see here.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6432190

Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:56 pm

EMPI sell genuine Engle cams. They also sell their own brand of cams that are Chinese copies of Engle cams.

The lifters with an oiling hole are a V-8 gimmick that is absolutely not needed in a VW. In a V-8 engine the lifters are above the crankshaft and do not receive as much oil and the hole in the lifters is needed to supply enough cam lubrication. In a VW engine the lifters are below the crankshaft and also in the oil level so the cam & lifters receive plenty of oiling from spraying and dripping off the crank and rods above them.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:50 am

I though Empi actually bought Engle or was that CIP? I admit I haven't used them, though I have bought other Empi products I was unwilling to use due to their obvious lack of quality - notably a cam gear and pulley. I vowed I would never use another of the modern "Empi's" products, but actually found some of their carbs and some other minor parts weren't so bad for the price.

Just don't expect any support from Empi if you have a problem and you'll be fine.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:04 am

Mad Manx wrote: raul arrese wrote: Maybe you don't hear about any failure because not too many people use them , I dnt know of anyone
You are only a ‘Show and Shine make it pretty’ guy, I do not value you opinion at all. Empi sells Ten’s on thousands of this
product every year not just ONE.

Thanks for the other input, I only warranty the workmanship not customer supplied parts but I do try to steer them in the correct direction. You can only do so much, most VW owners are on a cheap budget they want 200 HP for about $200

Yeah your right on that !!! My car does show and shine : ) thanks bud .. In fact I won first place at the show and shine show here in Miami , And it also has a show and shine Stroker in it with "No" EMPI parts . It does look good huh ??

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:46 am

raul arrese wrote: Mad Manx wrote: raul arrese wrote: Maybe you don't hear about any failure because not too many people use them , I dnt know of anyone
You are only a ‘Show and Shine make it pretty’ guy, I do not value you opinion at all. Empi sells Ten’s on thousands of this
product every year not just ONE.

Thanks for the other input, I only warranty the workmanship not customer supplied parts but I do try to steer them in the correct direction. You can only do so much, most VW owners are on a cheap budget they want 200 HP for about $200

Yeah your right on that !!! My car does show and shine : ) thanks bud .. In fact I won first place at the show and shine show here in Miami , And it also has a show and shine Stroker in it with "No" EMPI parts . It does look good huh ??
If you wanted just a show-n-shine car, you should of just slapped on some EMPI chrome like all the other guys and save yourself all the work in engineering those one of a kind custom made parts. ;)

Not sure if you realize the average person at a car show would not see this... total waste of time...

If all you wanted to do is win trophies.

Max Manx, let's see some of your work.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:15 am

Thanks glenn , well said ....

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:55 am

Empi no longer sells Engle products

So Cal Imports ( Not CIP) owns Engle.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:39 am

Since the cam gears have been mentioned more than once, which style did you get with your supplied parts? The stock replacement style of one size fits all are all poor quality from every manufacture, not just Empi. Will they work for a mild performance build, and is that the only thing available new, yes. Empi, AA, and a few others have cast straight cut sets with slots machined into the gear instead of just holes. I personally have never come across a set of these breaking, but the shop I worked at didn't use any spring combos over your standard dual set with them. Anything heavier usually got Bugpack's Billet gears. There are threads here about some having issues with the cast gears from all manufactures, but like with almost everything on the samba, they need to be taken with a grain of salt.

And Glenn, thanks for posting pics of Raul's car. It is quite an engineering marvel, but since he clearly stated he didn't use any Empi products in the build, his opinion on the topic is irrelevant.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:53 am

raul arrese wrote: Thanks glenn , well said ....

OK - I give up, I asked for a little information and I get SLAMMED. I am not overly impressed with fancy machine work or welding, I make shit like that every day as my real job. I build engines on the side to help out, I don't need my Ego Stroked only my engine.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:52 pm

When you are holding anything made by EMPI, you ask yourself "is this going to do what I need it to do?"

The answer is always -maybe....

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:52 pm

roachdub58 wrote: When you are holding anything made by EMPI, you ask yourself "is this going to do what I need it to do?"

The answer is always -maybe....
The real question is "is this gonna fit" or "is this gonna break".

Let me say that many empi parts are perfectly OK to use. But with their track record and lack of customer service, do you really want to use them inside a engine spinning 5000 RPM?

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:05 pm

Gkeeton,
Well said.
Quote: You are the builder, and you are responsible for the end product
I used a w110 empi clone and empi lifters in a core turn in engine i flipped then sold real cheap. /crossesfingers. Its holding together still, or else i wouldve gotten a call. The empi cams are a really heavy core. And i was told by a company i buy lots of parts and machining thru that they stopped using them due to the hard blank. I didnt question it, just followed their advice. As a person of ethics and who believes in karma, it is my due diligence to educate a customer on a particular issue when it may effect the quality or outcome of his project. If he takes my advice then great. If not, i make them sign a disclaimer. Empi lifters are pretty good imo for most mild builds. Ive used them on more than a few occassions. Empi cranks and rods are pretty good too.

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:19 pm

[email protected] wrote: And Glenn, thanks for posting pics of Raul's car. It is quite an engineering marvel, but since he clearly stated he didn't use any Empi products in the build, his opinion on the topic is irrelevant.
My post was in response to this from the OP:
Mad Manx wrote: You are only a ‘Show and Shine make it pretty’ guy, I do not value you opinion at all.
My point was to show he doesn't just slap on shinny bits from blister packs.

And maybe he didn't use any EMPI products in this build because he's had problems with them in previous builds.

From my experience EMPI cranks and rods are OK, but their oil pumps are crap. Never used their lifters or cams, but since there are other reasonably priced alternatives out there, why risk it.

Just 3 months ago I tore apart a engine where the lifter came apart. It destroyed the case and the bits of metal also got sucked up into the oil pump and damaged the crank journals.

Don't know what brand they were but he's looking at well over $1000 lost in parts and labor.