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Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:32 pm

All,
Working on getting a budget (got kids and a wife) together.

I usually work with one of the two local machine shops. Both have been around 30+ years with current owners. Usually what decides the shop I use is their availability (busy-ness). I called/stopped by both and they both seem like they are available to handle the job. One is closer to my house, one is closer to my work...so distance is a draw....

Can anyone give me an idea though, for budget reasons, what the following would cost in their neck of the woods...

1) Case Cleaning.
2) Crank Polish
3) Cam Polish
4) Heads recondition (Valves ground, seats redone, typical clean up)

I do not believe I need a case bore and my cam is looks fine but a cost of that may be nice to know as well.

I did remove the distributor gear off the crank already (with the tool) and I did find on that main journal that it has a very fine set of lines...I cannot feel them with my nail but it is by far the worse I have seen for the journals for this engine tear down (everything else real clean)... so maybe a crank grind/polish may be in order.

I am curious the cost factors for each service individually (case bore, crank grind) for budget reasons.... but also I have another engine, been sitting a while, as it is believed to be in worse condition...(for Cost Analysis)...I see myself doing some performance items to the second engine but not the first.

Thanks for the help,
Chris

Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:20 pm

350ish.

I recommend regrinding the cam. Polishing it won't do squat to be honest. I'm not sure what engine you got, but European Motorworks regrinds T4 cams and lifters for $95 a set. They might do T1 stuff to. You would have to call and see. MoFoCo does T1 regrinds, but I have no idea what their price is.

Polishing cranks is a good thing to do if it is within spec. It doesn't cost much either. Same goes for case cleaning. My engine machinest has a high pressure water/steam jet cleaner that did a good job. I like it better than hot tanking. I personaly wouldn't pay to have a case hot tanked. May as well just pressure wash it yourself. It would turn out just as good.

Heads are going to be the more expensive bit. Make sure you get fresh guides and exhaust valves. My machinist used single piece stainless valves from SI Valves. Intake valves can be reused if there is enough margin on the head and the stems arn't worn. A good shop will do a Leakdown test to make sure the valves are sealing well. If there are cracks between the spark plug and seats, or between the two valve seats, chuck them and get new ones. Just my opinion.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:14 pm

1) Case Cleaning. 40
2) Crank Polish 35 (clean, measure, check runout NOT included)
3) Cam journals Polish 10
4) valve job (Valves ground, seats redone, typical clean up) 120 plus parts

Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:41 pm

dont worry about the price, it's the quality you want to know. kids&wife ...I have 1 x ,one current and 6 kids.what do they have to do with it other than being a tight fit in a bug.

Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:46 am

All,
Thanks for the information!

Basically this engine was torn down due to my stubbornness/stupidity...

Basically I am restoring a 1973 Super Beetle that I have had in my possession for 10 years. I have driven it like 20 miles. I have had a Westphalia for almost 25 years so I am not a stranger to VWs.

Anyways went to do a compression and tune up and found a cylinder dead compression wise... decided to tear the head off to see what the issue could be and found a stuck valve that was off its rocker.

Had some issue with the head removal (broken cooling fins on cylinder and head) tore it down a little more to the point of being able to see in the case and looked things over found a very sandy oily case. Removed the oil screen which I changed not even a mile prior and found a gummy mess. At that point decided to crack the case and clean things out and do a rebuild before things start getting oil starved.

Thanks,
Chris

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:05 am

All,
On the tear down I found clean rod bearings, Cam bearings, cam faces/journals. I did find after removing the crank distributor gear two very fine lines in the main bearing/crank journal. Cannot feel the lines with my nail so we will see on the crank. The case had about 3/8 inch pudding sandy oil.

One piston did not have a recess top like the others and one set of push rods were like new while the other set were not. So not sure if the pistons/pushrods were normally like this or if the engine was torn down previously. All Bearings and parts (not sure of pistons) had VW symbols.

The case did not appear to be pounded out. I could not feel anything with my nail in the main bearing areas.

The things I have been stubborn on is keeping the case and keeping it stock as the engine supposedly, been verified by VW Denmark Museum, a match to the car.

So at this point going to need;

1) Bearing Set (Cam/Crank/Rods)
2) Piston Cylinder Set
3) Push Rod Tubes
4) Cam Followers - (They were pitted universally all over the Follower Face)
5) Engine Hardware Kit
6) Fuel Pump Flange
7) Bottom Oil Strainer
8) Cam Plug
9) Gasket Set.

This is my first VW motor but not my first engine rebuild.

I am looking for a good place to buy the above items..probably going to have the machine shop give me a quote... but been looking at Air Cooled .net but also browsing all over the web - Amazon, Ebay, CIP1, etc.

Any suggestions?

Also on the Cam followers, I see someone mention they can be reground... can they be successfully reground? (positives/negatives?)

Thanks,
Chris

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:32 am

Seems like rebuild heads are worth it with less hassle. ACN has some for $189 with valves, springs, etc already installed.

Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:40 am

SolomonMan wrote: All,

So at this point going to need;

1) Bearing Set (Cam/Crank/Rods)
2) Piston Cylinder Set
3) Push Rod Tubes
4) Cam Followers - (They were pitted universally all over the Follower Face)
5) Engine Hardware Kit
6) Fuel Pump Flange
7) Bottom Oil Strainer
8) Cam Plug
9) Gasket Set.

Also on the Cam followers, I see someone mention they can be reground... can they be successfully reground? (positives/negatives?)

Thanks,
Chris

#3, Nothing wrong with stock pushrod tubes so long as the welded seam hasn't split open. If they are not split, just stretch the accordions out carefully with your thumb and they will be good to go again. If they are split, then get a set of new stock tubes. I personally don't care for the adjustable pushrod tubes. Stock has never failed me.

#4, if new followers, you will need a new cam. They have to be matched. New and used do not work.

#8, you can reuse the stock cam plugs.

As for the cam and lifters, reminding is fine. Because of the stock metal, there will never be a material mismatch. Good material and hardness compatibility is key. Regrinding basically makes an old cam and lifters brand new.

Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:29 am

All,
Called the machine shop who has been around the longest...

1) Told me $45 for each head. ($90 for the pair) (Basically have the valves reground and seats redone.) Parts of course extra.

I have a local source for $100 stock re-manufactured heads.

I have pulled the valves on the one head (original) and the stems and guides were decent. (no wiggle and the valve stems were clean). No cracks on the heads between the valves. Very small amount of carbon on the bottom of the one exhaust valve. I have had experience pulling guides and valves in a College assembly class and for a personal engine (not VW) I did a while back. The head that was problematic originally the carbon/oil build up was much more severe but not the worse I have seen.

The head I purchased looks like its new...I have not torn down the valves but I could quick tonight...but I believe its in better shape then my one original head.

2) $75 for the crank and cam polish. (regrinding I would guess would be extra I will confirm)

3) $65 for the case cleaning (seems high but when done I would eat off the previous ones I have had done by them.)

So I still need to find out on the followers grind cost. Can they just grind the followers, if the cam is clean (just curious)?

On the connecting rods...as I had no problems with them and the bearings are clean should I just telescope/Micrometer them to confirm roundness...whats is commonly done on stock connecting rods?

When I start looking at the machine shop costs plus what I believe I need vs what the basic machine shop requirements (clean case/redo heads) + GEX engine kit or other engine kits. There is not much of a difference in cost.

Is this a normal thing or am I missing something...what is the better approach?

Thanks everyone for the help I really appreciate it.
Chris

Also on the wife and kid thing...Got a wife and only 5 kids (3 under 2)....your right the quality is the most important factor on the engine work...may just take a little longer to reassemble then first thought.

Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:32 am

Vanapplebomb wrote:

#3, Nothing wrong with stock pushrod tubes so long as the welded seam hasn't split open. If they are not split, just stretch the accordions out carefully with your thumb and they will be good to go again. If they are split, then get a set of new stock tubes. I personally don't care for the adjustable pushrod tubes. Stock has never failed me.

#4, if new followers, you will need a new cam. They have to be matched. New and used do not work.

#8, you can reuse the stock cam plugs.

As for the cam and lifters, reminding is fine. Because of the stock metal, there will never be a material mismatch. Good material and hardness compatibility is key. Regrinding basically makes an old cam and lifters brand new.

A few of the the push rod tubes split at the ends (between the accordion sections). :(

Thanks,
Chris

Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:18 am

Then just get new stock style tubes. They aren't that expensive...

Speaking of not very expensive...that deal on heads sounds fishy. I don't see how a decent head job could cost that little...aka, sounds like a crappy job done. What all does the head reconditioning get you? I can't imagine very much...

Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:22 pm

Vanapplebomb wrote: Then just get new stock style tubes. They aren't that expensive...

Speaking of not very expensive...that deal on heads sounds fishy. I don't see how a decent head job could cost that little...aka, sounds like a crappy job done. What all does the head reconditioning get you? I can't imagine very much...

Yep plan on getting new tube set.

There is a guy in town who owns a machine shop (this is for the $100 reman heads), I have never used, but he races VWs, owns many restored VWs (not kidding here on many), and is basically a VW nut.

I know he said I must have heads to swap and they must be rebuild-able. Hes been in VWs for over 40 years and is basically what my local guys use locally for parts (Empi and otherwise).

I have never used him for engine work, friends have, but cost seemed correct considering my local machine shop, who has been around 75 years (3rd generation) said he does the heads for like $45 a side. Also eBay had stock heads including shipping for $130 a piece. Your point though is very very valid ...seems cheap.

I know the machine shop said the guides and valves (parts) were extra. The parts involved seemed to climb in price based on whether stock or performance.

Honestly maybe this would be a good time to discuss a decent cylinder head job versus a mediocre one. I am a novice on this and have only been in a local college level engine fundamentals/rebuild class. Plus a simple high school Auto Fundamentals course. What experiences I have personally run into have been by the seat of my pants...

I assume an ideal job, please excuse my inexperience here and please correct me, would be new valves (stainless/sodium filled?), guides, springs, seats, and maybe retainers. The job would include a decent cleaning prep of the head. Maybe three angle grind on the seats. Then Bluing and Pressure testing to confirm good seal/overall job. This would be probably the minimum for a performance engine. But would it be an over kill for a simple stock motor?

A Mediocre job would be... valves reground and cleaned up. Valve guide checked by a simple wiggle test/visual inspection/measurement. Possibly a rebore (heard of it done-I guess its frown upon - why not replace the guide its easy/cheap) of the problematic valve guides. Replacement of any problematic exhaust valves. Seats checked, seats ground(?) and possibly replaced as only necessary. This would be consider a clean up of a stock only motor with a few miles on it. My guess what a $45 basic job gives me.

So where do I fall...I dunno...Honestly not sure...The worse head I had is not in the picture any longer. This motor is staying stock...and not going to be a daily driver due to our winters/salt state/have other vehicles. Its going to be a weekend warrior....changing the oil once a year due to age not miles kind of thing.

If I replace all the head components (I believe ~$100+ a side) I am better off buying warrantied heads for around $160-170 a side once labor/tax etc figured in.

Ideally from what I have heard I would want problematic guides, if not all, replaced and Stainless steel valves put in for the exhaust. Intakes valves reground and put back in. Head cleaned and prep for installation.

I would think the money spent on the lower end (cam/crank/case/etc) considering the cost/labor factors would be the bigger of the pain to deal with then a head problem down the road...unless a dropped valve was a issue. Not sure...

I think I am somewhat cautious of the expensive cylinder head work being done as a buddy of mine recently had the following happen.
He has a 600HP Big Block Formula boat and likes the throttle. Motor has ~12K invested and the motor has been one of the most reliable motors in the boat including the three separate rebuilds from the dealer. Its the third season on the motor. Last year, towards end of the boating season, he spent a fortune on his heads. New Seats, valves, the works. Ran the rest of the season and low and behold this year at the beginning of the season his compression is down in two cylinders and its pointing to intake valves on the leak down test. We will know more later this week. All the work on this motor was not done by any machine shop I am considering.

Maybe the question I have is what would a typical rebuilder or remanufacturer job be like on a stock motor/head set?

Thanks guys... I am really pulled in different directions on this one.
Chris

Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:37 pm

I am in NE Indiana, about 20 miles south of Ft. Wayne. I have tried machine shops in Indiana, Ohio, and St. Louis. None of the shops close to me have been able to provide the quality of work that I desire. I now use Brothers for all work on engine cases(they have fixed 2 cases for me that other shops machined incorrectly). Brothers does GREAT work at reasonable rates with quick turnaround. As far as heads, DRD gets my business there. I have spent many hours cleaning stacks of used heads trying to find a good pair. I will not use heads that are older than me ever again. I also have a budget and have learned that it is far less expensive to buy good quality once than cheap stuff over and over.
Good Luck

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:31 am

woodsbuggy wrote: I am in NE Indiana, about 20 miles south of Ft. Wayne. I have tried machine shops in Indiana, Ohio, and St. Louis. None of the shops close to me have been able to provide the quality of work that I desire. I now use Brothers for all work on engine cases(they have fixed 2 cases for me that other shops machined incorrectly). Brothers does GREAT work at reasonable rates with quick turnaround. As far as heads, DRD gets my business there. I have spent many hours cleaning stacks of used heads trying to find a good pair. I will not use heads that are older than me ever again. I also have a budget and have learned that it is far less expensive to buy good quality once than cheap stuff over and over.
Good Luck

This brings up the point though the work is as good as the person doing it and good parts is key to the engine rebuilding process.

I am figuring my oldest shop in town, 3rd generation is a good place to start. I am figuring now though the head job will be probably more than $45 a side which may slow things down on my rebuild. I have done other motors/parts with this machine shop...so I am comfortable with them. I will make this a point of discussion when I drop it off to see their plans.

Parts, I am looking at are Mahle Cast Piston set. Bearings are either EMPI, BugPack, and/or Kolbenschmidt. I did find OEM VW Main Bearings on Aircooled.net with steel backs...not sure if they are better or are similar to the others...?

On push rod tubes I see there are nylon tubes, adjustable tubes, wide tubes, and then I guess standard metal tubes. From reading I am not needing adjustable tubes for my stock setup? So guys what about wider tubes or nylon tubes vs standard tubes any big difference? Suggestions?

Looking at the gasket sets and I am curious how a Felpro vs the other standard gasket sets. I have heard that some gasket sets are way cheap...trying to avoid that by spending a little more on the gasket set. Suggestions?

Considering a Hardware kit for the nylon seal case bolts mostly....Is this a good move or am I better off just permatex-ing the original washer/nuts? Do I need the rest of the hardware or can/should I just pick up the sealing case bolts separately?

Trying to go into this with my eyes wide open.
Chris

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:53 am

SolomonMan wrote: woodsbuggy wrote: I am in NE Indiana, about 20 miles south of Ft. Wayne. I have tried machine shops in Indiana, Ohio, and St. Louis. None of the shops close to me have been able to provide the quality of work that I desire. I now use Brothers for all work on engine cases(they have fixed 2 cases for me that other shops machined incorrectly). Brothers does GREAT work at reasonable rates with quick turnaround. As far as heads, DRD gets my business there. I have spent many hours cleaning stacks of used heads trying to find a good pair. I will not use heads that are older than me ever again. I also have a budget and have learned that it is far less expensive to buy good quality once than cheap stuff over and over.
Good Luck

This brings up the point though the work is as good as the person doing it and good parts is key to the engine rebuilding process.

I am figuring my oldest shop in town, 3rd generation is a good place to start. I am figuring now though the head job will be probably more than $45 a side which may slow things down on my rebuild. I have done other motors/parts with this machine shop...so I am comfortable with them. I will make this a point of discussion when I drop it off to see their plans.

Parts, I am looking at are Mahle Cast Piston set. Bearings are either EMPI, BugPack, and/or Kolbenschmidt. I did find OEM VW Main Bearings on Aircooled.net with steel backs...not sure if they are better or are similar to the others...?

On push rod tubes I see there are nylon tubes, adjustable tubes, wide tubes, and then I guess standard metal tubes. From reading I am not needing adjustable tubes for my stock setup? So guys what about wider tubes or nylon tubes vs standard tubes any big difference? Suggestions?

Looking at the gasket sets and I am curious how a Felpro vs the other standard gasket sets. I have heard that some gasket sets are way cheap...trying to avoid that by spending a little more on the gasket set. Suggestions?

Considering a Hardware kit for the nylon seal case bolts mostly....Is this a good move or am I better off just permatex-ing the original washer/nuts? Do I need the rest of the hardware or can/should I just pick up the sealing case bolts separately?

Trying to go into this with my eyes wide open.
Chris

I build hundreds of engines and over a thousand new and rebuilt cylinder heads per year. Here is my advice. Use Silverline bearings, they are the best quality right now. For your intended use, it's also a waste of money to buy a set of Mahle pistons and cylinders. AA brand will work perfect. Use stock standard metal push rod tubes, no need for expensive upgrades. ONLY use Elring gasket sets. As for a hardware kit, if you have the original hardware, no need to spend money on new stuff. Totally unnecessary. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me directly.

Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:11 am

I'm not an engine guy so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but that being said, I can tell you my experience from recently building a bus engine.

If you do more reading on cam and lifter failures during break in, you will find that replacing them with new parts is a great insurance and peace of mind. I debated on going the re-grind route with my cam and lifters but ultimately decided new parts were worth the extra $40. Would I do it again? Absolutely.

The European machine shop in my area charges $125 per head for a valve job. Don't know how that compares to other places, but for an extra $100 you can buy a new set of heads vs old heat cycled heads with unknown number of hidden stress cracks. I cleaned and soda blasted my used Brazil heads and checked guide wear with a dial indicator, replaced all exhaust valves with new, and lapped in all the valves... No seat cutting or guide replacement. I'm only in the heads about $50, because the guides were all in spec. Next build I will buy new heads.

Now is the time to get everything balanced out.. This is money well spent IMO. plan on spending about $250 on balancing and just consider it a necessary expense. It's the very last thing I would skip on an engine build because you cannot go back and do it later without a case split.

Fri May 01, 2015 9:17 am

All,
I took the engine in 3 small totes over to the machine shop. I ended up at my local guy closest to my house. The reason, which may seem petty boiled down to the shop appearance and organization on my recent visits. I actually am spending slightly more at this location ($40-80). The difference in price really is irrelevant...the motor build is important to me even though its a stock motor.

He said block and crank look very decent. He spent some time with the case checking the main bearing area. Actually total visit was more than 30 minutes. He believes a standard polish of the crank will be all that is necessary. Cam looks good and the followers can be reground but were really not that horrible...so my cam/followers will match. The grind on the followers actually cost me about the same amount as new followers. Honestly I see why people replace both close to the same cost. I went this route as I figured the new ones may be harder/softer and cause me problems down the road and its been in the motor for over 40 years, most likely, so might as well keep it original as well.

The heads he did some inspection and was looking things up in a book and told me $130 for both heads. Said the heads looked decent. He said it will be a little better than the simple valve job. The heads will be torn down. He will bead blast the heads twice (once at the beginning/once sometime in the middle of the process- he told me I believe the second time is after the seat recondition/replacement). He will check/recondition all seats (grind). He will inspect and grind all valves. He will replace any questionable valves/valve guides/seats.

So total cost was the following;
$130 for heads
$170 for case, crank, cam polish/cleaning
$60 for followers.

$360 total

He originally thought $300-325 but the followers pushed me to $350-360 these are no more than expected prices.

I am heading out for vacation tonight and will not be back in town for 10 days...heading to Myrtle Beach for a Wedding (wife's cousin). So I told them I would give them a call on Thursday to see what bearings are actually needed but planning on standard across the board.

On the Flywheel Gasket....Which is better...Silicone (orange) or the black one...I am looking at the Elring gasket set and it appears to sell with the flywheel gasket and without it. Not exactly sure which one I am getting with Elring.

Thanks,
Chris

Mon May 11, 2015 3:54 pm

All,
Got back from vacation and with all the festivities did not get a chance to call the machine shop till this morning....this was my fault ....I got caught up with Family and Festivities last week.

Hopefully figuring, based on my last discussion with them, that the machining and everything would be accomplished.

Unfortunately they just had the followers reground completed.

I asked the ETA on the rest....basically just so I know how to plan my parts ordering (jugs/pistons, bearings etc) and the money layout...and The person on the phone said they needed to look at the crankshaft closer which made sense and they asked if I wanted it polished which gave me a clue that the person I spoke originally to did not pass on the info to the owner/machine worker and they had not gotten into the work for my engine much at this point.....this did not give me the warm and fuzzy feelings at this point. But growing up in a family business (3rd generation) I can understand miscommunication and things getting busy. Told him to call me when he knows more and we can get things all settled up.

Four hours or so go by and I get a call that the crank looks very good and standard bearings are the way to go. The heads are basically finished but I evidently needed a set of springs and he replaced the valve guides...which I was a little surprised at the valve guides but figuring I would be better off down the road said that is fine... whats the final total and I was told $510.

Of course, at first I lightly questioned the jump in price as we went from the original quote of $300 to $360 to $510 final amount. After we went over things and then I started adding the guides, springs and any possible shipping into the original amount the questions subdued on my part. I am curious if the springs were a kit (retainers, springs, etc). I said shipping as the springs are holding things up and will be in Wednesday morning. So the plan is a Thursday morning pickup.

So at this point I was really surprised at the final cost, happy the machining is done, happy that it worked out to be just standard bearings (no additional machine work). Will know if I am happy overall when I see everything done.

At this point, based on the fact I have an additional engine to do in the near future, I am curious what others have experienced with machine shops and how some of the specialty VW machine shops work/work out.

Thanks,
Chris

Tue May 12, 2015 6:13 pm

The only thing that concerns me with all the work you had done is the exhaust valves. It sounds like they reused the old ones. Original VW exhaust valves were only good for about 50k miles. Beyond that the head of the valve could snap off without warning. I would spring for new exhaust valves.

Wed May 13, 2015 10:10 am

Matthew wrote: The only thing that concerns me with all the work you had done is the exhaust valves. It sounds like they reused the old ones. Original VW exhaust valves were only good for about 50k miles. Beyond that the head of the valve could snap off without warning. I would spring for new exhaust valves.

On the purchased cylinder head...everything appeared to be all new...so I am thinking they are/were good...I actually pulled them previously and they all looked nice...no corrosion, no buildup, and no apparent narrowing...not to mention any wiggle of valve and guide...this is why I wonder on all the guide replacements...

The other head (original with motor) I could have expected possible problems due to the other original problematic cylinder head. The original kept cylinder head exhaust valves had buildup but it was not horrible....but I could see the guides/valves replaced.

I will know more tomorrow morning when I pick things up....

Thanks,
Chris