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budoka Fri May 01, 2015 6:38 am

i know there is excellent engine data presented free of charge here in the Technical section, and i truly thank whomever took the time and effort to put that info up.

however, one of the hoops i have to jump through here in order to get my car registered, is that i have to provide copies of some sort of printed reference which proves the size of my engine.

so i guess i have 2 questions regarding that.

1. as far as i currently know, the only external reference on the engine that can be used to determine the size of the engine is the engine number stamped into the cases. is there another cast-in number or something on the cases that can be used for displacement identification purposes?

2. does anyone have at their disposal, or know of, any book or printed material which can be used to show the displacement of the engine (for example, whatever material was used as the source material for the data shown in the Technical section on this site)?

many thanks for your time, folks!!!
-dan

sjbartnik Fri May 01, 2015 6:45 am

The owner's manual would be the natural source. Do you need to have a hard copy or will the scanned images that are available in the Technical section suffice if you download the right one for your car?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/type3.php

The official service manual (aka Bentley manual) also contains the technical specifications, but not sure how available that is in Japan. That was the official manual for VW of America.

Here's the relevant page from the 1969 owner's manual:


budoka Fri May 01, 2015 8:26 am

sjbartnik wrote: The owner's manual would be the natural source. Do you need to have a hard copy or will the scanned images that are available in the Technical section suffice if you download the right one for your car?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/type3.php

The official service manual (aka Bentley manual) also contains the technical specifications, but not sure how available that is in Japan. That was the official manual for VW of America.

Here's the relevant page from the 1969 owner's manual:



thanks for the reply!

i actually have both the Bentley and two copies of the owners manual, but what i need is a copy of a book, magazine or something that shows that engines number XXXXXXX to number XXXXXXXX were 1600cc engines. or that casting number XXX XXX XXX XXX is a 1600cc block - or something like that. something that i can point to externally to show proof of the engine size without paying the officials to tear the engine apart and measure everything.

of course, that's not to say the engine couldn't be bored, but if there's some printed proof to identify the engine positively, the officials are perfectly happy to assume people are being honest.

i know, it's a crazy system, huh?

take care,
-dan

W1K1 Fri May 01, 2015 9:23 am

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/serialnumberst3.php

sjbartnik Fri May 01, 2015 10:01 am

W1K1 wrote: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/serialnumberst3.php

Right, but it sounds like he needs something authoritative containing the same information (i.e. from VW).

I wonder what is the source document or documents for that table?

EverettB Fri May 01, 2015 10:17 am

sjbartnik wrote: W1K1 wrote: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/serialnumberst3.php

Right, but it sounds like he needs something authoritative containing the same information (i.e. from VW).

I wonder what is the source document or documents for that table?

This for a lot of it:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/progressive_refinements/

Also the VW shop manual

Air-Cooled Head Fri May 01, 2015 11:57 am

budoka wrote:
without paying the officials to tear the engine apart and measure everything.

-dan

Really? They'd do that? I'd be half tempted, just to watch.

Of course, they'd probably charge $20000, tear it apart, do their measurements, say "Yep, 1600", then walk away. :roll:

budoka Fri May 01, 2015 5:29 pm

EverettB wrote: sjbartnik wrote: W1K1 wrote: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/serialnumberst3.php

Right, but it sounds like he needs something authoritative containing the same information (i.e. from VW).

I wonder what is the source document or documents for that table?

This for a lot of it:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/progressive_refinements/

Also the VW shop manual

EverettB, that's the kind of thing i need! if only the material you just posted the link to was for a 1969 (sorry, i should have said that from the beginning :oops: ).

the kindness of the people here just blows me away.

-dan

budoka Fri May 01, 2015 5:31 pm

Air-Cooled Head wrote: budoka wrote:
without paying the officials to tear the engine apart and measure everything.

-dan

Really? They'd do that? I'd be half tempted, just to watch.

Of course, they'd probably charge $20000, tear it apart, do their measurements, say "Yep, 1600", then walk away. :roll:

that's pretty much exactly how it would go down from what i hear. they have you transport the car to an "approved" garage, they tear it down and measure everything, and send you the bill. and it ain't cheap. :shock:

-dan

EverettB Fri May 01, 2015 11:01 pm

I think the John Muir "idiot manual" has an engine listing in the back of it.

This is not VW but it is printed materials.

I do not know if they would accept that?

This book (one example, first ad that came up for me by searching on Muir)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1756866

yellrhd Sat May 02, 2015 12:32 am

If you have the Brown Bentley there are two sources for the info they require.

The VIN numbers covered are listed on the forward page and the Engine Data is listed on Page 53 (Table I) this covers both the early U-code engine and the Late X-code engine and should suffice.

Were you able to locate your engine Number? Should have been behind and beneath the oil breather on the right case half facing right it cant be seen from directly above.

This with the info from the tech page should be sufficient.
Type 3
Code Year Engine/Notes
O 1961-65 1500cc
K0 1966-1972 1500cc - 54hp
M0 1966-1972 1500cc - M240 low compression 52hp
P0 1966/67 1600cc - M240 low compression 50hp
T0 1966-1973 1600cc
U0 1968-1973 1600cc - fuel injected for USA
U0 1970 1600cc - dual-relief case
U5 1971-1973 1600cc - 7.7:1 compression - US/Canada M239 California fuel-injection
X 1972 1600cc - 7.3:1 compression - California
Flat-4 or any decent VW shop should be able to assist you with getting this through but it may cost you a little for their time not sure who is in your area.

ataraxia Sat May 02, 2015 5:30 am

Air-Cooled Head wrote: budoka wrote:
without paying the officials to tear the engine apart and measure everything.

-dan

Really? They'd do that? I'd be half tempted, just to watch.

Of course, they'd probably charge $20000, tear it apart, do their measurements, say "Yep, 1600", then walk away. :roll:

Given that an 'approved' shop can charge upward of $700 just to look at the car - you wouldn't want them to do much more.

budoka Sat May 02, 2015 6:42 am

EverettB wrote: I think the John Muir "idiot manual" has an engine listing in the back of it.

This is not VW but it is printed materials.

I do not know if they would accept that?

This book (one example, first ad that came up for me by searching on Muir)
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1756866

you, sir, are both a scholar and a gentleman!

i actually have the Muir book, too but i just haven't read that far in it yet. sure enough, there's the info starting on page 325. cool!

thank you so much for the help.

take care,
-dan

budoka Sat May 02, 2015 7:01 am

yellrhd wrote: If you have the Brown Bentley there are two sources for the info they require.

The VIN numbers covered are listed on the forward page and the Engine Data is listed on Page 53 (Table I) this covers both the early U-code engine and the Late X-code engine and should suffice.

Were you able to locate your engine Number? Should have been behind and beneath the oil breather on the right case half facing right it cant be seen from directly above.

This with the info from the tech page should be sufficient.
Type 3
Code Year Engine/Notes
O 1961-65 1500cc
K0 1966-1972 1500cc - 54hp
M0 1966-1972 1500cc - M240 low compression 52hp
P0 1966/67 1600cc - M240 low compression 50hp
T0 1966-1973 1600cc
U0 1968-1973 1600cc - fuel injected for USA
U0 1970 1600cc - dual-relief case
U5 1971-1973 1600cc - 7.7:1 compression - US/Canada M239 California fuel-injection
X 1972 1600cc - 7.3:1 compression - California
Flat-4 or any decent VW shop should be able to assist you with getting this through but it may cost you a little for their time not sure who is in your area.

incredible. you guys just rock!

looks like i really need to get more familiar with the books i have, huh? thanks for getting me going in the right direction though.

i'm still not sure on the cases. there is definitely no numbers under the fuel pump or anywhere along the top case seam, except for the 540 i posted in another post. either i have some type 1 or 2 cases, or maybe these were replacements that were never stamped. i'll have to dig deeper over the next couple of days, for sure.

i think i'm good on the process and how to get it through the initial inspections. it's not too much different than when i did my Knucklehead. still, there are a few enthusiast shops around i can go to if i get in a bind. actually the guy who went to the port to pick the car up with me works at one of the shops.

i hope to get the paperwork turned in a day or 2 after Golden Week is finished (this Thursday).

just looking forward to driving this car!

-dan

budoka Sat May 02, 2015 7:02 am

ataraxia wrote: Air-Cooled Head wrote: budoka wrote:
without paying the officials to tear the engine apart and measure everything.

-dan

Really? They'd do that? I'd be half tempted, just to watch.

Of course, they'd probably charge $20000, tear it apart, do their measurements, say "Yep, 1600", then walk away. :roll:

Given that an 'approved' shop can charge upward of $700 just to look at the car - you wouldn't want them to do much more.

no doubt! i'm sure it would get real ugly real quick, and i don't want no part of that action.

take care,
-dan

Donnie strickland Sat May 02, 2015 12:38 pm

budoka wrote: i'm still not sure on the cases. there is definitely no numbers under the fuel pump or anywhere along the top case seam, except for the 540 i posted in another post. either i have some type 1 or 2 cases, or maybe these were replacements that were never stamped. i'll have to dig deeper over the next couple of days, for sure.
-dan

That would be my guess. Sometimes the replacement cases didn't get stamped.

blues90 Sat May 02, 2015 1:52 pm

Not to change the subject yet reading that chart it states oil consumption 3.4 pints per 1,000 miles that's more than half the full level 5.3 pints . It doesn't say is this the max allowable ? I don't recall ever burning that much oil in 1,000 miles.

sjbartnik Sat May 02, 2015 3:11 pm

blues90 wrote: Not to change the subject yet reading that chart it states oil consumption 3.4 pints per 1,000 miles that's more than half the full level 5.3 pints . It doesn't say is this the max allowable ? I don't recall ever burning that much oil in 1,000 miles.

It states 1.7-3.4 pints as a range. So presumably 3.4 would be the max. allowable.

Doesn't mean you have to burn that much oil, just that if the tolerances stacked against you that day at the factory, you could.

Bobnotch Sun May 03, 2015 9:27 am

Donnie strickland wrote: budoka wrote: i'm still not sure on the cases. there is definitely no numbers under the fuel pump or anywhere along the top case seam, except for the 540 i posted in another post. either i have some type 1 or 2 cases, or maybe these were replacements that were never stamped. i'll have to dig deeper over the next couple of days, for sure.
-dan

That would be my guess. Sometimes the replacement cases didn't get stamped.

Yup, my all aluminum case that I've got in my 65 Notch doesn't have any numbers stamped in it, other than the matching case half numbers from when it was originally machined in Brazil. Meaning no engine number was stamped in it.

budoka Sun May 03, 2015 7:45 pm

to pick you guys' brains a little more,

is there some other external means of identifying the size of the engine other than the engine number?

just trying to think of options here.

Bobnotch thanks for affirming that this did happen sometimes.

according to the seller, this car had the "original engine." i'm sure he was just going off what he was told by the original owner's son, but it makes things complicated for me. i didn't really care whether the engine was the original engine or not, but never imagined that it wouldn't have *any* numbers. :(

please tell me i'm not going to have to buy an engine to put in this thing before i can register it.

how deep does the rabbit hole go? :twisted:

-dan



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