TheSamba.com :: View topic - Engine rebuild done, FI tuned, now overheating?

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:41 pm

So this thread will take many months, since I won't get started for several months at best. It's the end of a wear cycle on my Type 3 stock 1600FI motor. But it might be interesting and I am looking for thoughts of engine rebuilders here.

After about 115K miles I am getting a hot idle red light flicker that has never been there before. I only drive a couple of thousand miles a year and it;s not my DD, so I'm not in a hurry.

When I brought the car back into service about 5-6 years ago (man, was it that long?) I pulled the motor, stripped it to the long block to clean it up and fix all the external odds and ends, I notices very large endplay. I forget the reading, but it something like 0.012. I used the three thickest shims I had (I didn't want to use 4), and it was down to something like 0.008. (I'll update the thread with my measurements form my logbook when I find it).

No oil pressure issues at that point, and I was a little worried about tightening it up too far, with a sudden change in geometry. After all, it was working fine up to that point.

So anyway, now I DO have an oil pressure problem, and the kicker is that at the end of the last couple of drives that got it hot enough to bring on the idle light, it gets brighter when I push on the clutch pedal.

I am imagining that that #1 bearing is my issue, both for endplay itself, and now the resultant low oil pressure leaking out when the crank is forced back from the action of the TO bearing.

So I will cut back on my driving until I tear it down, which will likely be this fall. I'll measure and photograph the work and post here. I am betting I'll find that bearing worn, and I am hoping the saddle in the case is not the problem, since this is a one-owner, matching numbers car.

The rebuild will enlarge it just a bit (1776, I presume), counterbalanced crank, and dynamic balance. The goal is a little more rev range: low range better from restoring compression, the high end form the balancing. It should be a little more flexible in traffic after this. I will keep the FI stock, though pressure or larger injectors will probably be part of the plan.

Anyway, I am curious of anyone has noticed this phenomenon of correlation between clutch and light, and what they found upon teardown.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:32 pm

Phil- If you want to preserve even the most tiniest remote hope of saving that original case- stop driving it- RIGHT NOW.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:47 pm

Tram wrote: Phil- If you want to preserve even the most tiniest remote hope of saving that original case- stop driving it- RIGHT NOW.

Agreed. By driving it, you're pounding on the bearing saddle sides, causing more damage that will require the machine shop to cut back to clean it up after an alignbore (Rimco faces both sides when they do a case). That's what the fore-aft movement has been chewing on all these years.

Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:38 pm

KTPhil wrote:
and the kicker is that at the end of the last couple of drives that got it hot enough to bring on the idle light, it gets brighter when I push on the clutch pedal. I am imagining that that #1 bearing is my issue, both for endplay itself, and now the resultant low oil pressure leaking out when the crank is forced back from the action of the TO bearing.
My 71 Bus engine developed excessive end play near the end of each of it's previous two lives. It must be pretty bad to do that! The real problem is not the end play it's the wallowing out around the #1 main bearing although the end-play is important too. Mine would get so bad it would start leaking oil out the flywheel oil seal but don't recall there was a relation to the clutch and the oil pressure. But I agree with your thinking! It's logical.

Don't let the machine shop cut any more off your case thrust than it needs to clean it up. Cut the oversize thrust bearing to fit the case. You can add lives doing that. A Photo of the case I am rebuilding for a spare engine for my bus, It's going together as a type 1 though.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:14 am

I appreciate the advice, guys. This is what I had feared.

I had reported the flickering light a year or more ago here but was reassured this was normal and nothing to worry about for the time being. But this latest twist of the clutch action made me question that advice, and now you confirm my suspicions. I'll park it until I can tear it down.

I'll start looking for Ventura/Los Angeles area shops to do the case and crank work for me, and start preparing the garage for my teardown work. I'll take it down to a short block at least, and then consult with the selected shop.

Any suggestions in the northern LA/Ventura area?

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:07 pm

KTPhil wrote: I appreciate the advice, guys. This is what I had feared.

I had reported the flickering light a year or more ago here but was reassured this was normal and nothing to worry about for the time being. But this latest twist of the clutch action made me question that advice, and now you confirm my suspicions. I'll park it until I can tear it down.

I'll start looking for Ventura/Los Angeles area shops to do the case and crank work for me, and start preparing the garage for my teardown work. I'll take it down to a short block at least, and then consult with the selected shop.

Any suggestions in the northern LA/Ventura area?

And it is normal and nothing to worry about- and the owner's manual even says so. But I think you left out the little detail of the excess end play at the time. :wink:

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:00 pm

True, I didn't put it all on one post until now, though I posted about the larger endplay periodically over the years as that topic came up. No matter, she's parked until further notice, and fingers are crossed the damage is not recoverable with this case.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:14 pm

KTPhil wrote:

I'll start looking for Ventura/Los Angeles area shops to do the case and crank work for me, and start preparing the garage for my teardown work. I'll take it down to a short block at least, and then consult with the selected shop.

Is Rimco in that area? Just asking, as they've always done great work for years, and know VW's. The last case I had done, I shipped it across country, and talked to them on the phone. The case had everything done that I wanted, and has been fine since, I'd use them again if I needed another case done.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:11 pm

X2 on Rimco. I have used them for over 20 years. They do all my case work, cranks and rods. I would trust them more then most any local shop.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:45 pm

Brother's Machine Shop
Proformance
Oldspeed

Ive heard good things about each of those shops and Oldspeed has done work on my car.

As for the other shop you mentioned, I would check the feedback here on thesamba.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:00 pm

No slam on Rimco, but Santa Fe Springs is about 60 miles from here. I expect to stop in as the engine in torn down and assembled, and 1-2 hours each way makes that impractical.

Locations from Ventura to the San Fernando Valley are more what I'm looking for.

But keep the ideas coming... I'm gonna check out quite a few before committing.

A Type 3 specialist may be preferred due to the knowledge of what will or won't work with the FI, but that is probably rare, and in any case secondary to top notch internal work and balancing.

I'm not looking for speed but rather utter dependability and long life. I'll consider plumbing the case for an external oil cooler (oh the horrors for a stock junkie!) in the name of long life.

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:10 pm

I think you'll find that most of the competent shops are in the South Bay/OC area. I ended up going with Proformance in Orange and was happy with Dave's willingness to take on my weird early Type 3 overhaul project that no one else would touch. He's a good guy.

I've heard some positive things about Powerhaus in Torrance -- that's a little closer to you. I talked to them about my project but they were too busy to take it on at the time.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:41 am

I'm an unfortunate member of the engine rebuild club too. I'm having all of my machine work (balancing, full flow, etc.) done by Gary Berg who is in Orange. If he's backlogged, you could always go with Gene Berg Enterprises, also in OC. I'm fairly sure that they don't line bore cases, but they do everything else to very exacting standards.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:56 am

KTPhil wrote: I'm not looking for speed but rather utter dependability and long life. I'll consider plumbing the case for an external oil cooler (oh the horrors for a stock junkie!) in the name of long life.
I missed it probably but: swing axle or IRS car?

Max

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:39 am

IRS 4 speed.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:23 am

Ah. My swing axle full-flow solution would not be helpful to you. I have no mustache bar.

Max

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:35 am

I've seen posts about removing the galley plugs and welding in fittings to clear the IRS support bar. I'm thinking seriously about this option. I drive very few miles, and mostly short trips, so I'm probably building up junk that I figure a filter would help trap.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:56 pm

Hi Phill. You mentioned the end play issue from the get go being excessive. Not sure if it was set improperly, or the beginning of a loose thrust. There are ways to determine a loose thrust, but that's water under the bridge now.
I have rebuilt and/or repaired plenty of motors both at the dealer level, independent level, or at home. I have had to use cases that were thrust cut and, in my opinion, it seemed the end play did not work out to what I consider optimum. I cant really describe it but it wasn't favorable to me and I worried if it was done correctly. With this, and it is my opinion, I would be careful of who does this work. Also, in my opinion, motors with a loose thrust may have led a hard life. If your t3 is a '68 or '69, is that case good enough to invest alot of funds into, vs a later large hole case?
As to what Max stated, it was my thoughts there were no big issues full flowing a t3 case with the rear hanger. If I recall, the berg's would sell you a boat-load of the 90 degree fittings to snake the routing around the oem components.
As far as a competent machine shop goes, would a call to airhead parts yield any suggestions over by the Ventura/Oxnard coast? I have been a LA guy and highly recommend EMS (Engine Machine Service), down by LAX. Bill and Dick would even be open a bit on Saturday, so that could help with traffic. Also cant say enough good things about Dave Greiner in Orange. I haven't spent any funds there but Chico Anibel (Steel Buggin) in Arcadia gets good raves here.
I hope this helps, Bill.

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:01 pm

Thanks again folks for the suggestions. I'll be checking them all out.

This is a '71 case, and it hasn't had a very hard life, but the miles do add up, and this used to be my DD years ago when I put 30K/year on it.

I'll find my notebook in the next few weeks and find those endplay readings from when I first put her back on the road back around 2007(?) and re-shimmed it to get close to the wear limit reading. In about a month I'll pull the motor out and update that reading.

Stay tuned, this will take a while...

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:14 pm

I sent my case, heads and rods to Mofoco in Milwaukee. I haven't heard from them yet, so no news to report right now, but I'll let you know.