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Tahoebaja Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:22 pm

Hello, I recently came into possession of a 69 Baja bug. It has fiberglass front end w gas tank relocated to behind back seat. It has a BJ beam w cut and turn for lift. The front suspension is very rigid, I was wondering if I can run a thru rod in one of the beams w corect shocks? Will this soften the front end?

jsturtlebuggy Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:03 pm

With a Baja Bug I would put in the adjusters in the beam before removing any torsion leaves in the stack or removing them completely.
With the adjusters you could change the preloading of the torsion leaves.

Tahoebaja Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:11 pm

I wish I had adjusters. The beam has been cut and welded. Would I be better off w a new beam w adjusters? I'm not looking to race, just want to cruise around on some fire roads without feeling like the windows are gonna break and fall out.

jsturtlebuggy Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:25 pm

You could always cut the welds and rotated beams back some and then weld them in place again.
This depends on whether you or someone has the skills to do. It not then it my be better to replace the beam.
Not seeing any pictures it hard to tell what someone has done previously to the beam.
Removing a whole torsion leaf stack out of a beam in a Baja Bug for off road will not leave enough spring action with a the weight that is there.
It is done on dune buggies for the street only that are lighter in weight then your Baja.

What are your plans for the future of your Baja. Do plan on up grading the rear suspension such as longer wider trailing arms? If do have plans for something like that, then changing the front suspension to a king and link pin (1965 and earlier Bug) type front suspension you will be able to get more wheel travel with it then a ball joint suspension.

As with any vehicle it all depends on how much money you want to spend.
Welcome to insanity.

Tahoebaja Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:41 pm

For now the plan is just fire roads, I acquired the Baja and have done some research over the last month, I'm actually thinking along the lines of stock vw thing beam w some proper shocks and I would be a happy camper. Thanks for the reply.

TDCTDI Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:06 pm

Welcome tahoebaja, cheapest thing to do is to cut & turn again to dial the preload back, the next is to install adjusters so you can dial it in, then you can go crazy from there. I & most others do not suggest removing leaves on a full car, you'll only see that for buggies.

philthy Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:51 pm

Might not be beam related. What kind of shocks are you using?Pics?

Multi69s Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:27 am

philthy wrote: Might not be beam related. What kind of shocks are you using?Pics?

Cutting and rotating the beam does not make the suspension stiffer, it just changes the starting point of the wheel travel. With a link pin beam you can twist the beam enough to get the trailing arms to preload against the stops. You will definitely feel all of the small bumps, but at speed the arms will still move. However, the OP has a BJ beam. So unless the PO welded on stops, you will not usually not see this, unless the beam was turned so far that it is maxing out the angularity of the ball joints (BAD). I would look at the shocks first, then check to see if the PO put in heavier leafs.

enjoyther1de Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:16 am

Tahoebaja wrote: For now the plan is just fire roads, I acquired the Baja and have done some research over the last month, I'm actually thinking along the lines of stock vw thing beam w some proper shocks and I would be a happy camper. Thanks for the reply.

Or a stock beam with lift spindles. You will ride like stock and still be fully capable off-road.

earthquake Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:54 pm

Do you have KYB gas shocks, I had them on my car with a 5/16" cut and turn and they would pound the crap out of you, I put a set of Bilstein 7100's [the older class 11 shock] on the front and the ride change was the difference between night and day. I did not the one with the reservoirs, Now if I could just afford the rears. There not cheap but they are a nice shock.

http://www.eshocks.com/bil_ORvh.asp?Series_Index=q...;SubChar=q

Casey
PS; KYB stands for "Kills Your Back"

philthy Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:06 pm

KYB GR-2 are ok, KYB Gas-A-Just will feel like rocks with a light front end

dustymojave Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:12 pm

philthy wrote: KYB GR-2 are ok, KYB Gas-A-Just will feel like rocks with a light front end

That depends hugely on a great number of factors. I've been running KYB Gas-A-Just for decades and have never disliked them. I tried Bilstein's for a while and found them quite harsh and went back to the KYBs. GR2s are only intended to replace stock shocks and give a slightly more controlled feel. If the front if turned too far, it will beat the crap out of you, regardless of shocks.

The ride in my Baja Bug is FAR from harsh or stiff. I used Gas-A-Justs on my 67 street Bug for nearly 400,000 miles. It rode nice and comfy. My wife liked that car.

The GR2 shock offroad team:
.

PhillipM Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:20 am

^What he said, it's just a matter of matching them to the right springs and preload.

Tahoebaja Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:39 pm

I am rally new to Baja bugs and early beetles; but my Baja has been cut in the front, fiberglass front and no gas tank. Seems very light. I just thought I could get away w one thru rod and some bilstein 7100. Then tackle the rear.

Tahoebaja Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:24 pm




TDCTDI Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:28 am

Someone has definitely over adjusted the beam, the angle of the control arms are at the limit of the ball joints, very dangerous & is the source of your harsh ride. Either install some adjusters or cut & turn the beam again to dial back the preload. eliminating one of the spring packs is going to soften the suspension too much & will probably cause failure of the remaining spring pack.

dirtslinger Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:58 am

maybe I'm missing it somewhere here, but if you have Sway A Way spring packs in there, the ride will be a lot stiffer than stock springs.

I would pull the spring packs out and see if you have stock or Sway A Way.

Tahoebaja Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:24 am

Can I add adjusters to my current beam, or will I need a new one? If I eliminate one torsion stack can I compensate w a good shock or coilover?

DHale_510 Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:59 am

Shocks are not springs, different animal, cannot compensate for each other. Shocks slow the spring down and this absorbs a bump before the spring can be all used up, sometimes. The spring bends and returns without bending or breaking.
Coilovers are both shocks and springs. They put all the force on the upper mount. The stock upper shock mount barely can handle the shock load, none of the spring load.
Sure you could half the torsion spring set and replace it with a coilover, but there is no reason to do so much. Formula V racers typically run with only one torsion setup but they have nose weights of about 100# and never [ :wink: ] run offroad or over bumps. Your Baja will have a nose weight of 500# or more [remember to add the two people in the car here], not much different than a stock beetle and a lot more than that racer, plus it will see more bumps than the average shopping mall parking lot hopefully, so your spring choices need to be more carefully thought out methinks.

The problem with your suspension is probably no down travel, too much preload/ relocated torsion center mount. The car needs to have 1/3 to 1/2 of the front suspension working in the down direction or it will be harsh. With your preload [from overdone rotation] means the car will have no front spring action until the load [bump force] exceeds the preload amount which may be 1/2 the weight on the axle. Yeah, that ain't nice. It looks "cool", is common, but is usually very bad.
Ball joint axles have no real travel stops either, this is bad and weak and will cause failure. See the "hook and rod" discussions elsewhere. Stock ball joint suspensions had fancy rubber upper mounts that are almost always eliminated with replacement shocks. Yours have been eliminated. So the ball joints or shocks do the limiting and both are poor at it.
You may even be very happy with a stock setup beam. Pretty much everyone ran Bajas this way in the early days and were pretty happy. As these street and lighter use cars got heavy with cages and folks had to go faster over rough ground, the rotating for preload became useful and more common.
It would cost about the same to eliminate both torsions and change to full coilover as a hybrid setup. Conversion requires lots of welding to support the upper mount, through rods to keep the arms in place, and generally a new, wider beam. Works great, costs a lot.
Stiffer front torsion bars [SwayAWays] are very rare and kinda expensive, it is doubtful you have them. Stock torsions deflect about 1" in 75# of load, this means when you sit [you or your 150# girl friend will do it, of a couple Bags of concrete] on the bumper the front drops about 1" AFTER you have loaded the car to the point where it is off the lower bump stops. You could measure the preload by loading the axle until it starts to move too. Those stiffer front torsions are about twice as stiff so the deflection is about half as much. Coilover setups typically are set in the 150# spring rates too, and have about twice the travel so they can land from jumps at speed without breaking the car or or passengers. Not really what you want, yet..
By far the cheapest thing is to properly reset [cut and weld] the center mounts on your beam with stock torsion springs, or replace it. You will want both mounts to be set at the same rotation usually.
Adjuster beams are good if you want to change your mind or experiment to prove me right or wrong. They may be as cheap as having your beam welded up by someone who knows more than the last guy to work on yours. There are several designs and they are all OK. See this discussion elsewhere. Coilovers are another way to do this but will cost more.

Dennis

Tahoebaja Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:53 pm

Darn! Anyone know a welder in the Tahoe Reno area that can help me get the right..



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