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Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:16 am

I am quite upset by this news. It is deceitful what VW has been doing since 2009 with diesel emissions. Considering the research and data on climate change issues, to purposefully behave the way VW has is unacceptable. :evil:

We were planning to trade our 12 Jetta sportwagen for a new golf sportwagen. I don't think we will anymore. Looking for other thoughts/opinions.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:22 am

linky for the story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/business/volkswa....html?_r=0

And yes, as a 2010 Sportwagen TDI owner, that upsets me at many levels (a person with integrity, an environmentalist, a VW fanboy, etc)...be interested to see how this is remedied through recall.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:42 am

I wonder how the actual emissions compares to an earlier diesel, say a 99-'03 ALH that were sold in the US?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:07 pm

Still significantly less particulate emissions than the earlier injection pump based diesels.

I'm not defending VW with this, because I understand why they did it.

NOx emissions are caused by running leaner than stoichiometric. Because of how a diesel works, that's almost all the time (only when using all of the naturally aspirated power and then going into boost) since diesels don't have regulated air (throttle body butterfly), they just regulate the amount of fuel and when. Any time you're cruising or idling that ~2L of air is still going into the cylinders.

The only two solutions (as far as I'm aware) are to run EGR almost all the time or to make the engine smaller. EGR effectively makes the engine smaller by displacing the air in the cylinders with inert "smoke," so the mixture can be less lean.

The main drawbacks come in forms of intake and PCV system clogging. ALH (since it was less precise) had more aggressive EGR than our 16v diesels, and the intake manifolds clog every 140k miles.

Looks at the problems ford is having with its last two generations of powerstrokes. They're dying all the time, mainly due to intake clogging. If it weren't for the EGR, it would be a very reliable engine.

Power is not part of it, since NOx emissions are not a problem once you have enough fuel to make it stoichiometric, EGR turns off a hair before you hit boost.

VW was trying to balance reliability with emissions, and tipped the scale too far towards reliability.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:08 pm

bagpipe goatee wrote: I'm not defending VW with this, because I understand why they did it.
$$$$

Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:09 pm

I'm thinking of getting a PZEV sticker for my Bug, after all, it is emitting ZERO emissions when I'm not driving it. And it's not my dd. I wonder how many people that will upset?

Turns out the sticker is not available w/o a window attached. :cry:

Sat Sep 19, 2015 1:47 pm

How bad is the emission output an any VW diesel?

I would think that the majority of gas hungry SUV's & pickups on the road puts tons more smog into the air for each mile traveled

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:03 pm

The diesel emissions would not pass as is and maintain expected diesel mpg's. Thus they continue to be the dirty motors they always were. Pure deception.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:09 pm

All a matter of how you look at it. The diesels get better mpg's, thus using less fuel, vs a petrol motor using more fuel but being cleaner on certain emission components. And with the diesel motors generally lasting longer, I'd venture to guess it's a wash. Kinda like a prius being a low emission auto when sold, but being a serious burden during manufacture.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:12 pm

Not to mention all the air cooled VWs still on the road, or all the other precatalyst "hobbyist " vehicles. The 2009 newer TDIs are far cleaner cheating than any of pre-emissions vehicles & most of the current SUVs. Your electricity probably comes from a coal burning plant, are you upset enough to pull the plug on your lifestyle?

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:37 pm

I think the root issue is being diluted. VW planned to, and in fact did for 7 years, deceive and lie to the consumer and the govt. This is stinks of corporate greed and profits before people. Certainly poor emissions are an equally big problem, but to plan to behave this way on purpose is 'bad form' to say the least. And yes, I would be upset if my electricity came from a coal plant, but I live in VT and my electricity comes from Hydro Quebec.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:56 pm

To me it feels more like a money grab from a desperate government, record fines to GM $35-900 million for ignition switches, depending on source, Toyota fined $1.2 billion for airbags, coca-cola suddenly owes $3.3 billion. As far as emissions go, I'm sure the presidents last trip to Alaska for a global warming speech probably exceeded the emissions output of quite a few TDIs.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:15 pm

More like businesses with zero morals and no regard for the safety or well being of the consumer or the planet. To these corporations, the end justifies the means...as long as there is profit...the casualties along the way are part of good business practice...it is disgusting

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:05 pm

I guess during the winter when HydroQuebec has no water to make electricity, you need to curl-up into a ball and hibernate. Cause coal and gas are making your electricity...Not to mention how much heating oil is being used in that part of the country.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:41 pm

You're right, make sure you recycle the VW responsibly & buy a bicycle.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:55 pm

Do you REALLY think the river freezes solid in the winter??!! Anyway, I guess some folks don't mind being lied to.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:56 pm

VWinVT wrote: Do you REALLY think the river freezes solid in the winter??!! Anyway, I guess some folks don't mind being lied to.

No, I don't. But here in Idaho we also get a majority of out electricity from hydro. But they are always asking for rate hikes to pay for power when water flows are low and they need to buy power generated from other sources. And hydro isn't as "green" as you like to think. Just look at what all those hydro dams have done to the Salmon runs. There are trade-offs for the way you like to live, deal with it.

Sell your VW's and never buy another, if you think it'll make a difference, or just do it to make yourself feel better. Whatever you need.

Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:23 pm

I know what I'll do. Just ignore the recall notice. Unless I'm very mistaken the onus is on VW to reflash the ECM - I have zero desire to upset the software in my car that is getting me as much as 44.1mpg. If this is forced on us TDI owners I'll end up sending the ECM to Malone for a reflash to stage 2 along with the downpipe that eliminates the diesel particulate filter (DPF) that is the major bugaboo to great mileage. And get rid of the egr system too. I don't live in an emissions mandatory test area so I don't have to worry about that. Reports are some cars with the Malone package get 50+mpg. Not sure if its worth doing that as I'm getting great mileage now but what happens when the ECM is reflashed? Who makes up for the crap mileage I'll be getting if I'm forced into this change?

Anyone know what kind of mileage one could expect after VW reflashes my ECM? I doubt it'll be as good as its been so far.

Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:46 am

The dealer did ECM flash on mine last scheduled service. They were kinda vague as to what it was actually for. Come to think of it, pretty sure they lied . They said to expect a slight decrease in MPG and no change in performance. I still get around 40 w/mixed driving and I've got a heavy foot. Still get 42+ highway. The car seems a bit more sluggish to me now but it's no sports car anyway. I'm considering Malone tune as well, but won't risk removing DPF etc. Felonies aren't my thing really.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I really like the car. Not crazy about being duped by VW.

Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:43 am

I sincerely doubt all of you bought a TDI because of its low emissions, i suspect you bought them because of the fuel economy. VW didn't misrepresent their mileage claims unlike other manufacturers. I have very little respect for those feigning disgust just because it's the "feel good" movement at the moment. If you're really that upset by difference in emissions of them "cheating" then you shouldn't own a car at all, much less multiple cars, because you're still consuming natural resources & adding to "global warming" regardless of what you drive.