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Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:52 pm

I built this thing some time ago. Other fish got in the pan ahead of this one. But I'm tryin to get some fire in my azz to get something done.

This is an attempt at the "dark side" as I have heard it called. My question is , I made this thing to cover all the way over the alt. pully. Now I'm wondering if I should segegate the air from the alt. cooling from the intake, or will it ingest enough hot air to make a difference.

My thinking was it would be easier to seal the whole shebang than try to seal around the alt. belt just itself.

I'm going to take the t-3 out & stick this in for a test fit in a few days. The snout is about 1/2" longer measuring from front engine mounting flange to where the bellows attaches, compared to a t-3.

Thoughts......pros.....cons.......later

Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:11 pm

Cool piece. Nice work.

I'll be interested in how well the bellows fit. Be sure to post-up your progress. You're gonna love the type4 in there. VW should have offered it in these heavy cars.

Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:09 pm

gimpy60 wrote:

This is an attempt at the "dark side" as I have heard it called. My question is , I made this thing to cover all the way over the alt. pully. Now I'm wondering if I should segegate the air from the alt. cooling from the intake, or will it ingest enough hot air to make a difference.

My thinking was it would be easier to seal the whole shebang than try to seal around the alt. belt just itself.

I think you're OK. The alternator has a cooling air supply off the fan on a Type 4 engine; there's a little boot that ducts cooling air from the fan into the back (er, front) side of the alternator.

The harder part will be checking/adjusting your belt tension!

Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:27 pm

Nate M. wrote: Cool piece. Nice work.

I'll be interested in how well the bellows fit. Be sure to post-up your progress. You're gonna love the type4 in there. VW should have offered it in these heavy cars.

They did....and they improved the suspension, steering, handling and heater while they were at it. They called it the 411 and 412 :wink:
Ray

Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:41 pm

Looks similar to mine

Have been running it since 2008, and absolutely no heating issues.

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:16 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Nate M. wrote: Cool piece. Nice work.

I'll be interested in how well the bellows fit. Be sure to post-up your progress. You're gonna love the type4 in there. VW should have offered it in these heavy cars.

They did....and they improved the suspension, steering, handling and heater while they were at it. They called it the 411 and 412 :wink:
Ray

I knew someone would say that. And secretly I knew it would be YOU!! Or any of the other 9 people world wide that love those great driving, well engineered, absolutely hideous looking cars!! :lol:

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Nate M. wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Nate M. wrote: Cool piece. Nice work.

I'll be interested in how well the bellows fit. Be sure to post-up your progress. You're gonna love the type4 in there. VW should have offered it in these heavy cars.

They did....and they improved the suspension, steering, handling and heater while they were at it. They called it the 411 and 412 :wink:
Ray

I knew someone would say that. And secretly I knew it would be YOU!! Or any of the other 9 people world wide that love those great driving, well engineered, absolutely hideous looking cars!! :lol:

Only the truly hardcore drive a type 4.

Putting the drivetrain in other Types is like making your lady wear a burka.

You're either a real man and put what you're riding out there, or you're a pussy and try to hide it.

How do you like those apples? :lol:

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:47 pm

Tram wrote: Nate M. wrote: raygreenwood wrote: Nate M. wrote: Cool piece. Nice work.

I'll be interested in how well the bellows fit. Be sure to post-up your progress. You're gonna love the type4 in there. VW should have offered it in these heavy cars.

They did....and they improved the suspension, steering, handling and heater while they were at it. They called it the 411 and 412 :wink:
Ray

I knew someone would say that. And secretly I knew it would be YOU!! Or any of the other 9 people world wide that love those great driving, well engineered, absolutely hideous looking cars!! :lol:

Only the truly hardcore drive a type 4.

Putting the drivetrain in other Types is like making your lady wear a burka.

You're either a real man and put what you're riding out there, or you're a pussy and try to hide it.

How do you like those apples? :lol:

:lol: .....and there are probably only about 6 of us......some of us sick bastards own mre than one at a time! Ray

But hey....if want to see something really sick......check out my 004 four speed transmission build thread on the 411/412 forum....and....there is a really nice guy ....Joerg.....a factory lwvel trans mechanic who is chiming in. Its a REALLY strange gearbox. First set of three piece 2nd gear synchros I have ever seen. :wink:

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:30 pm

Tram wrote:
Only the truly hardcore drive a type 4.

Putting the drivetrain in other Types is like making your lady wear a burka.

You're either a real man and put what you're riding out there, or you're a pussy and try to hide it.

How do you like those apples? :lol:

Meow!! My wife would make a hijab look good!! :lol:

I prefer a 5-speed wolf in sheep's clothing rather than the equivalent of grandma's automatic German Pacer X. :wink:

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:52 am

WOW, I must be the ultimate low life, scum sucking, bottom feeder out there. After all, I have a 2 liter Type 4 AND an automatic trans in my 73 Squareback :oops: .

Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:41 am

Multi69s wrote: WOW, I must be the ultimate low life, scum sucking, bottom feeder out there. After all, I have a 2 liter Type 4 AND an automatic trans in my 73 Squareback :oops: .

An automatic isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me. The type4 body OTOH. . . :wink:

My next project may have an automatic. I'm still looking for the right donor. . . :twisted:

Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:04 am

Wow, look what I started. Can somebody link me to a thread that might show some more of these abortions.

Multi man, yours is way too fancy for me, I tend to lean more toward function than form. But it looks good tho.

I have trouble finding stuff on the search function, why I ask for a link......thanx guys for the help at any rate. Gimp

Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:07 am

Nate M. wrote: Multi69s wrote: WOW, I must be the ultimate low life, scum sucking, bottom feeder out there. After all, I have a 2 liter Type 4 AND an automatic trans in my 73 Squareback :oops: .

An automatic isn't necessarily a deal breaker for me. The type4 body OTOH. . . :wink:

My next project may have an automatic. I'm still looking for the right donor. . . :twisted:

I dont drive a type 4 with an automatic.... :wink: ....if most potential 411/412 drivers back in the day (or even now) could have simply driven one of these with the 004 four speed....they probably would have sold better. The looks of the 411 were not that much different than a "fat chick". Far too many still think the type 4 cars are some variant of the type 3. :lol:
Ray

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:02 pm

gimpy60 wrote: Wow, look what I started. Can somebody link me to a thread that might show some more of these abortions.

From the classifieds:
411

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1823914
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1842841

412
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1866509
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1871216

IMHO, they were actually very good cars, but most (including myself) just could not get past the looks and the proportions of them. To me, if they get the Euro headlights they can look *OK*, but just barely. But the wheels sit too far back on the car (both front and rear) and that makes the proportions of it just look odd.

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:22 pm

Nate M. wrote: gimpy60 wrote: Wow, look what I started. Can somebody link me to a thread that might show some more of these abortions.

From the classifieds:
411

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1823914
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1842841

412
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1866509
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1871216

IMHO, they were actually very good cars, but most (including myself) just could not get past the looks and the proportions of them. To me, if they get the Euro headlights they can look *OK*, but just barely. But the wheels sit too far back on the car (both front and rear) and that makes the proportions of it just look odd.

Well...we had to have the front wheels set farther back to make room for that huge ass trunk. We needed that trunk to haul away the bodies of the type 3 owners that talked smack about our cars! :lol:

Yeah...its odd. The front wheels though...ARE too far back. This happened much like it did in the super beetle for the same reason...strut front suspension....and add to that....safety crumple zone vehicle. The crumple zone is just forward of the front axle centerline and can be seen under the fender.

Back to the original question...about the cooling boot. Typically most use a boot from a type 4 wagon yes/no?
I am gearing up in the spring to cast a new boot for my sedan.
Ray

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:41 pm

The 411 was designed to meet, or be easily modifiable to meet, expected crash standards in the era before seat belt laws and airbags. It needed all that room to survive a 50mph front collision with unbelted occupants (and also 5 mph no-damage bumpers). As built it did not meet those standards, but the real estate was there to make it so in the future.

The USG backed off some of those requirements, and mandated set belt buzzers and interlocks, then went to airbags when that technology became available.

There are photos of Type 4 cars being used as test mules for automatic belt systems, drop-down screens and mesh panels, and even servo-assisted crosswind correction, among other adventures in safety. There was no room (or strength) in the older series cars for such devices and standards. The 411 was to be the VW of the future!

It's too bad the Type 4s were not successful in the market. Underpowered and overpriced, they could not complete. But they ushered in a new cleaner styling, safety and roominess at VW, and could have been developed into some really practical, fun, quick, and comfortable cars. But they never got the chance.

You can see a bit of Golf/Dasher in the styling and it was a kind of transition from the Bug to Type 3 to even cleaner Type 4 styling.

Another hindrance was the lack of a 4 door wagon. For families, the 2-door wagon wasn't practical enough, and the 4 door sedan didn't hold enough.

I think VW was looking internally and didn't want such a model to compete with planned models from Audi and NSU, which they had bought back in that era. They lost sight of the greater market and were simply out-played in the marketplace. Remember the ads proclaimed a "full line" of cars and yet there was a gaping hole for a practical 4 door wagon for families.

Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:08 pm

KTPhil wrote: The 411 was designed to meet, or be easily modifiable to meet, expected crash standards in the era before seat belt laws and airbags. It needed all that room to survive a 50mph front collision with unbelted occupants (and also 5 mph no-damage bumpers). As built it did not meet those standards, but the real estate was there to make it so in the future.

The USG backed off some of those requirements, and mandated set belt buzzers and interlocks, then went to airbags when that technology became available.

There are photos of Type 4 cars being used as test mules for automatic belt systems, drop-down screens and mesh panels, and even servo-assisted crosswind correction, among other adventures in safety. There was no room (or strength) in the older series cars for such devices and standards. The 411 was to be the VW of the future!

It's too bad the Type 4s were not successful in the market. Underpowered and overpriced, they could not complete. But they ushered in a new cleaner styling, safety and roominess at VW, and could have been developed into some really practical, fun, quick, and comfortable cars. But they never got the chance.

You can see a bit of Golf/Dasher in the styling and it was a kind of transition from the Bug to Type 3 to even cleaner Type 4 styling.

Another hindrance was the lack of a 4 door wagon. For families, the 2-door wagon wasn't practical enough, and the 4 door sedan didn't hold enough.

I think VW was looking internally and didn't want such a model to compete with planned models from Audi and NSU, which they had bought back in that era. They lost sight of the greater market and were simply out-played in the marketplace. Remember the ads proclaimed a "full line" of cars and yet there was a gaping hole for a practical 4 door wagon for families.

Yes....they were expensive....they listed a little over $4k. Yes...Underpowered.... in the market they were aimed at..."V-8 ridden"

USA.....but among the VW-s...they were faster, quicker and had better power than anything before it... and among other similar segment cars at the time......they were just about on par for performance.

With all of its advancements....because of its Styling and cost...and poor timing on the USA market for that odd combination is what doomed it.

Yes....seen from the rear quarter...the four door Dasher/Passat... and the 411/412 four door are definitely related,

Ray

Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:00 pm

raygreenwood wrote:
Back to the original question...about the cooling boot. Typically most use a boot from a type 4 wagon yes/no?
I am gearing up in the spring to cast a new boot for my sedan.
Ray

Yes, the NLA type 4 wagon boot and coupler (2 pcs) are what was used in the "old days" of converting. That's what my son is using too, as I picked it up back in the mid 2000's when I saw 1 in the classifieds.

Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:39 am

Bobnotch wrote: raygreenwood wrote:
Back to the original question...about the cooling boot. Typically most use a boot from a type 4 wagon yes/no?
I am gearing up in the spring to cast a new boot for my sedan.
Ray

Yes, the NLA type 4 wagon boot and coupler (2 pcs) are what was used in the "old days" of converting. That's what my son is using too, as I picked it up back in the mid 2000's when I saw 1 in the classifieds.

I have a couple of the sedan boots. It will be one of the first large scale casts I have done in a while. If it works out well...I may try one of the wagon boots.

The type of silicone I will have to use will only be good to about 425F. Ray