TheSamba.com :: View topic - Sloppy Steering. Is it my steering box? Watch my video!

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:39 pm

Howdy. Please take a look at the below videos and let me know what you think. I recently replaced my front beam and with that most steering components: damper, center pin, drag link, tie rods, coupler disc, filled the steering box with oil and replaced the seal. After, it was professionally aligned.

The steering was sloppy before and sloppy now. While moving I can move the wheel up to a couple inches in either direction before I get the feeling like steering engages. This makes the road grooves and wind experienced at higher speeds a tad unnerving as I continuously wiggle the wheel.

In both videos the wheels are off the ground.

Here is the steering box. Is the movement at the coupler normal without any movement in the drop arm? My wife is moving the steering wheel approximately 10 - 2 (on a clock).

Here's a look at the other steering components. See anything? Take a close look at the center pin. It appears to rise up during travel back and forth. Is this normal?

Thanks for the feedback.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:42 pm

I can't tell from that, others might be able to. What does the steering box feel like if you pop the drag link off the arm? If it was the box I'd expect to be able to feel it there.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:43 pm

Thanks. Not sure what I'm feeling for unfortunately. I would expect more response from the movement of the coupler to the output at the drop arm.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:50 pm

The way to check for play is to use your fingers. They can detect movement the eye can not readily see. You should not be able to feel any play in any of the tie rod/draglink ends and there should be no up and down movement to the relay arm. The steering box itself shouldn't have any kind of clunking movement as the steering wheel is rocked back and forth and the sector shaft should not be moving into and out of the box, just rotating.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:34 pm

A couple of questions. Did you center the steering gear before connecting the drag link? It really has to be dead centered before hooking up the drag link.

The tire rod you can remove from the drag link that's bolted to the pitman arm has A LOT of threads showing. That makes me suspicious that your gear may not be centered. It also makes me concerned that there are not many threads screwed into the rest of the drag link. That would ruin your day if it pulled out of the drag link. I'd certainly loosen the clamp, mark the threads and un-screw it to see how many threads are actually screwed into the rest of the drag link. While the drag link is disconnected from the pitman arm, go back and sit in the cab. Turn the steering wheel all the way to the right, then all the way to the left while counting the turns. Then, turn the steering wheel back 1/2 the way to the other side. That should have the steering gear centered. Who cares if the steering wheel isn't centered. You can pull it off the shaft and re-center it.

Last thing- that steering gear has an adjustment for the worm gear on it. Have you adjusted it?

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:45 pm

Your second vid, @ :31, your arm at the torsion tube, it's not TIGHT.
I can see it move along vertical axis & hear the slop as well.
Now, is it loose bolt or is the pin deformed?
That slop would cause some road wander, how much? ?

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:07 am

wcfvw69 wrote: A couple of questions. Did you center the steering gear before connecting the drag link? It really has to be dead centered before hooking up the drag link.

The tire rod you can remove from the drag link that's bolted to the pitman arm has A LOT of threads showing. That makes me suspicious that your gear may not be centered. It also makes me concerned that there are not many threads screwed into the rest of the drag link. That would ruin your day if it pulled out of the drag link. I'd certainly loosen the clamp, mark the threads and un-screw it to see how many threads are actually screwed into the rest of the drag link. While the drag link is disconnected from the pitman arm, go back and sit in the cab. Turn the steering wheel all the way to the right, then all the way to the left while counting the turns. Then, turn the steering wheel back 1/2 the way to the other side. That should have the steering gear centered. Who cares if the steering wheel isn't centered. You can pull it off the shaft and re-center it.

Last thing- that steering gear has an adjustment for the worm gear on it. Have you adjusted it?

Thanks Bill, I don't believe that my steering gear is properly centered. I remember losing center, probably by fiddling with it and then attempting to get it back but I believe it's still off. That is on top of my to do list, but I was thinking that this wouldn't cause the sloppy feel. Doesn't seem like it would matter where you are connected in the path of the worm/roller. All points should provide the same feel. no?

As for the threads showing at the pitman arm. There was a mark on both the threads extending from the steering box and the drop arm. I aligned these upon installation. The threads extending from the steering box are tappered (I believe), the arm slid on as far as you see in the video.

I haven't touched the adjustment for the worm gear yet. I wanted to tackle all other options before doing this. I have read here that this can cause binding if done too tight and may be an indication that you should really just replace the steering box. Adjusting this improperly is a concern of mine.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:12 am

timvw7476 wrote: Your second vid, @ :31, your arm at the torsion tube, it's not TIGHT.
I can see it move along vertical axis & hear the slop as well.
Now, is it loose bolt or is the pin deformed?
That slop would cause some road wander, how much? ?

Well, the pin is new. Sadly, it may have been the installer (me). I see a tad bit of movement in the vertical plane, as well. The bolts shouldn't be an issue. I follow torque guidelines, although my torque wrench is the manual steel bar type.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:15 am

Wildthings wrote: The way to check for play is to use your fingers. They can detect movement the eye can not readily see. You should not be able to feel any play in any of the tie rod/draglink ends and there should be no up and down movement to the relay arm. The steering box itself shouldn't have any kind of clunking movement as the steering wheel is rocked back and forth and the sector shaft should not be moving into and out of the box, just rotating.

With the volume cranked I hear a clunk in the first video. Very audible at 0:21 and on.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:03 am

timvw7476 wrote: Your second vid, @ :31, your arm at the torsion tube, it's not TIGHT.
I can see it move along vertical axis & hear the slop as well.
Now, is it loose bolt or is the pin deformed?
That slop would cause some road wander, how much? ?

At :31 you hear two distinct clunks. One when the pin drops down and then another just after. See if you can locate the second clunk?

This is the only thing that jumps out to me. It could be the Wave (spring) washer on the bottom of the pin broke or is not there. This keeps tension on the pin and prevents it from moving up and down in the vertical axis. Pull the grease cap off and inspect the wave washer.

Here are some vids to compare to.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7606246#7606246

Good luck
Tcash

PS tell your assistant, Good job!

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:07 am

Big Papi wrote: wcfvw69 wrote: A couple of questions. Did you center the steering gear before connecting the drag link? It really has to be dead centered before hooking up the drag link.

The tire rod you can remove from the drag link that's bolted to the pitman arm has A LOT of threads showing. That makes me suspicious that your gear may not be centered. It also makes me concerned that there are not many threads screwed into the rest of the drag link. That would ruin your day if it pulled out of the drag link. I'd certainly loosen the clamp, mark the threads and un-screw it to see how many threads are actually screwed into the rest of the drag link. While the drag link is disconnected from the pitman arm, go back and sit in the cab. Turn the steering wheel all the way to the right, then all the way to the left while counting the turns. Then, turn the steering wheel back 1/2 the way to the other side. That should have the steering gear centered. Who cares if the steering wheel isn't centered. You can pull it off the shaft and re-center it.

Last thing- that steering gear has an adjustment for the worm gear on it. Have you adjusted it?

Thanks Bill, I don't believe that my steering gear is properly centered. I remember losing center, probably by fiddling with it and then attempting to get it back but I believe it's still off. That is on top of my to do list, but I was thinking that this wouldn't cause the sloppy feel. Doesn't seem like it would matter where you are connected in the path of the worm/roller. All points should provide the same feel. no?

As for the threads showing at the pitman arm. There was a mark on both the threads extending from the steering box and the drop arm. I aligned these upon installation. The threads extending from the steering box are tappered (I believe), the arm slid on as far as you see in the video.

I haven't touched the adjustment for the worm gear yet. I wanted to tackle all other options before doing this. I have read here that this can cause binding if done too tight and may be an indication that you should really just replace the steering box. Adjusting this improperly is a concern of mine.

When the bus was new, the gear was centered and then the pitman arm, drag link and tie rods were installed. The dead center part of the worm is where you get some wear as it's where it rides most of the time, going straight down the road. Adjusting the worm closes that gab and tightens the play up. You just don't want to go too tight and have it catch as you turn the wheel fully right or fully left. It would "catch" or bind in the centered position as you turn the gear through.

If it was mine, I'd center the steering gear with the drag link un hooked. Once the gear is centered, I'd loosely hook up the drag link to see how far off the front wheels are pointing (are the wheels in a slight right turn or left turn). I can't recall if the pitman arm has a master spline for installation on the steering gear or not. If the pitman arm is on in the correct position, loosen the tie rod you can turn on the drag link and turn it in (most likely) until the front wheels are pointing straight ahead.

Once that is done, I'd adjust the steering gear worm adjustment. Loosen the nut and gently turn the worm adjustment clockwise until it bottoms out. Then, back the adjustment out 1/4 turn. With the front wheels up in the air, grab the LF tire at 9 and 3 oclock and push the wheels like your doing a right turn. What you're doing is rotating the gear through it's travel, trying to see if you have a catch at the wheels straight ahead position (or where the gear is dead centered). If you do feel a slight catch, Back the adjustment out just a touch until the catch is no longer felt. Tighten the adjustment nut, put the front wheels on the ground and see how much play is left. Most of the time, adjusting the worm will remove most of the free play out of the gear.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:29 am

Big Papi wrote: ... Doesn't seem like it would matter where you are connected in the path of the worm/roller. All points should provide the same feel. no? ...

NO
There is a tight spot at the center. Getting everything adjusted without moving from that tight spot is your goal.

Remove the pittman arm, turn the steering wheel all the way in one direction. Count the turns as you turn it all the way in the other direction. Divide that number by two and turn that amount back. You should be at or near centered and you can feel for the tight spot by turning left and right from the center. The tightness at that spot is adjustable on the steering box. Hopefully the spokes on the steering wheel will be level. If not, pull the steering wheel and set the spokes level. Once again check that you are on the tight spot with the spokes level.

Lock/secure the steering wheel in the level position. With the wheels pointing straight ahead, adjust the length of the draglink so that the marks on the pittman arm line up when it is installed back on the steering box. This may be difficult to do exactly because you have only a complete turn choice. The job would be easier if the draglink were threaded at both ends.

With everything tightened safely go for test drives to see if the vehicle goes straight ahead with the steering wheel spokes level. If not, you may have to adjust the draglink one turn one way or the other. It took me about seven test drives before I found out there wasn't any draglink, one complete turn, adjustment that would get the spokes level. At this point I had to write down my adjustments and the test drive results to keep track and make sense of them.

If you never get a drag link length that results in spokes level you will have to adjust your tie rod.

Be aware that city streets are usually crowned and this will slightly affect the straight ahead/spokes level relationship. You may have to get onto the freeway or highway before you find the adjustment sweet spot. If you are not on the tight spot the steering box will wear incorrectly and be damaged.

We've assumed that all the other steering components are in good condition and that an alignment has been done fairly recently.

BTDT
If you do a search you'll find "the tool" for removing the pittman arm and posts where I was asking questions, receiving replies, and the reason you need to be on the tight spot.

Aloha
tp

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:01 pm

Big Papi wrote:

Thanks Bill, I don't believe that my steering gear is properly centered. I remember losing center, probably by fiddling with it and then attempting to get it back but I believe it's still off. That is on top of my to do list, but I was thinking that this wouldn't cause the sloppy feel. Doesn't seem like it would matter where you are connected in the path of the worm/roller. All points should provide the same feel. no?

The steering box is designed so it will only be tight at the center, as you move the sector shaft away from center there will be more play. This allows you to adjust the backlash at center without the worry of having a tight spot somewhere off to one or both sides. In other words the pitman arm must be properly installed or you will have play when going straight down the road.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:02 pm

Does anyone know of a source for the nut that attaches the pitman arm to the steering box? Looks to be 24x1.5. Nothing local will have this, that I know of, and I can't find it online anyplace.

The nut on there currently is a jam nut but is not a locknut. There is a flat metal plate that has a 90 degree bend in it. This sits up against one of the hex sides and acts like a washer. seems wrong.

Would Castellated be the way to go? or nyloc?

C. N 11170.1 Jam Locknut - Attaches Pittman Arm To Steering Shaft Late 1973 to 1979 $8.00
Note: From VIN 213 2195 235 using 24x1.5 thread shaft

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:29 pm

Mine was a castellated nut, but I had difficulty getting it lined up for the hole for the cotter pin. I had to use a generator pulley washer under the nut. I'll be checking the torque after a few hundred miles and hopefully I can retorque and get alignment without the washer.

If you don't already have the hole in the shaft for the cotter pin, then the OG lock plate/washer is good for a few uses. I would use either a castellated nut and cotter key or a lock plate/washer rather than a nyloc nut.

Aloha
tp

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:25 pm

I think you know this but this isn't drive able in this condition.

I think both your steering box needs adjustment and the swing pin bushings are worn or not put together right.

Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:10 pm

Big Papi wrote:
The nut on there currently is a jam nut but is not a locknut. There is a flat metal plate that has a 90 degree bend in it. This sits up against one of the hex sides and acts like a washer. seems wrong.

Would Castellated be the way to go? or nyloc?

The late buses used that thinner nut and bent plate setup. Early (quality) buses used a castellated nut and cotter pin. Those cotter pins are beefy too; don't tell the ASE but I reuse VW cotter pins before replacing them with crap that is available nowadays. (Excellent quality pins are still available for the rear axle nuts, and should be of Serious Metallurgy to be considered safe.)

As a general rule, the later a Volkswagen is made, the cheaper and fewer fasteners it will have. Look at the rear apron bolts and dash side you don't. Feel free to find a quality castellated nut, drill the pitman shaft perfectly, and locate a quality cotter pin, or reuse your existing nut……

Robbie

Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:11 pm

asiab3 wrote: ... crap that is available nowadays. ...

I bought a box of metric cotter pins online that were of excellent quality for the castellated nut on my pittman arm and the nuts on the steering coupler. The size for the pittman arm fit well. None of them would fit the steering coupler bolt holes correctly and I used nyloc nuts there instead. Four of them, what could go wrong without some noticeable symptoms?

This might be the url;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/METRIC-COTTER-PIN-ASSORTME...SwAYtWKPxI

Aloha
tp

Fri May 06, 2016 11:13 am

Quick follow up question. I have a late bay steering box. Bentley says there is a center mark on the worm spindle cap. Mine doesn't exactly match the photo in the book. In the photo below I'm half way through revolutions from one side to the next. Approx 1.75 full revolutions. Does anyone know if my center alignment is when the line on the cap is centered on the raised square?

Fri May 06, 2016 11:42 am

I see what looks like a chisel mark on your raised square, I would guess that that is what you are aligning with. Don't really know.

If you adjust your box up tight and it gets tighter as you move off center, then you have probably not located the center correctly.