TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sat May 14, 2016 12:51 pm

Hello all. New to Vw's here. I picked up this rail and have been learning quickly. Picked this up in Yuma for a bday present for myself. It has a 21xx engine, dual dells, and I have no idea what trannny in it.

I got it tuned up, changed the exhaust and broke it already. Hence, the learning fast part.

I named the rail after my wife's departed mother, Sandy. Seems fitting for a few reasons.

I intend on using this thread to ask questions and show what I do to this little machine as I go.

Thanks in advance to everybody for your patience and help. The VW is whole different world than where I come from, Ls1's.

Here are a few photos to get started.

Sat May 14, 2016 1:55 pm

What broke? Transaxle?

Sat May 14, 2016 3:54 pm

I spun a hub. Lost the castle nut pin I guess. The engine dynoed at 105 hp and 150 ft lbs on a Mustang dyno.

Sat May 14, 2016 5:40 pm

Not sure what a cut and turned front beam is. Why is it beneficial? Do I already have it?
Also, the front is really hard hitting in the shock department. Meanwhile, the back is really soft. With me and a pass in, it will bottom out the back pretty easy. Is there a shock that is cheap that I can soften the front up and stiffen the back? The back has coilovers right now.
It does really well on the road, just gets a little squirrelly like a soft rolling motion sometimes. Kinda feels like the rear is loose at times.

Sat May 14, 2016 11:49 pm

Quote: Not sure what a cut and turned front beam is. Why is it beneficial? Do I already have it?

Its when you cut out the center part of torsion tube (where there is a square socket that holds your torsion spring in place) turn it, and weld it back on at a different angle, effectively changing your spring pre-load to change the height and stiffness of your front suspension.

I just use generic bug shocks for the front in of my rail, because sand rails and buggies are so much lighter than a bug, especially in the front end, they usually run with the suspension maxed out for downward travel, which is okayish for most things really even if its not ideal, but it does make the front stiff.

As for the back, the spring plate fits into a splined gear at the end of your torsion bar, by taking the spring plate off and moving it on that gear you can adjust your rear preload and stiffen up your suspension.

But...with coil overs AND your torsion bar you should have a pretty hard rear suspension right now...so I wonder if the previous owner removed the torsion bar completely and is only using coil overs for springs?

Anyway, nice looking buggy.

Sun May 15, 2016 11:45 am

Is the torsion bar inside the swing part of the axle?

I have a cover where the trailing arm meets the swing part. Right behind that cover is a bar that bolts over the trailing arm. The only other link postioning the axles is the coilover shock. Can I just pop off the cover and see what is going on, then just bolt the cover back on?

What should I see inside that cover?

Can I just get a torsion bar and install it easily? I like the idea of preloading the suspension and using the coilover for the last bit, basically using the torsion bar as a leaf spring. Am I on the right track?

Sun May 15, 2016 2:56 pm

Quote: Is the torsion bar inside the swing part of the axle?

Its actually in two halves fitting inside the tube that the front of your spring plates attach to. (the flat metal plates running forward from your rear wheel hubs)

You should be able to see the ends behind those chrome looking covers you have.

This is the procedure to adjust your rear torsion preload.

http://www.vw-resource.com/rearaxle.html

Quote: What should I see inside that cover?

Something like this:

(be careful messing with the spring plate if its not supported or chained up as its under tension (or at least supposed to be) and if it its disconnected from the wheel and slips off that stop ledge at the bottom it will arc down at high speed)

Quote: Can I just get a torsion bar and install it easily? I like the idea of preloading the suspension and using the coilover for the last bit, basically using the torsion bar as a leaf spring. Am I on the right track?

Well, first you have to figure out what is going on there. The only reason I am wondering if yours was removed is that buggies weigh about half of what the original car did so most rear suspensions on rails and buggies are pretty stiff as they are, and with a coil over they should be even more so. Mine is very nearly maxed out in the rear and I only have about 2" of downward travel with no coilover or anything so I don't know why anyone would add coilovers on a rail unless they removed the torsion bar and converted it to use only the coils. I can jump up and down on my bumper and the shocks only compress a couple inches, what is yours like when you do that?

Usually the only reason people do that conversion is if they are using longer swing arms and trying to get more travel than what the torsion bars will allow but people do strange things so you never know exactly what you have until you look.

But yes, what you are saying is possible although if you really do have to buy new torsion bars they aren't super cheap and you will probably need to get new spring plates as I think the conversions use different plates

In my opinion you shouldn't need coil overs at all with your set up as they where not needed on the stock vehicle which was much heavier than your buggy.

Its also possible your shocks are simply blown if your bottoming out really easily. If those coilovers in back are the cheap EMPI ones they don't have a very good reputation for quality.

Also, more pictures of the relevant parts always helps since without being there to see it, jump on the bumper etc, half of what I am saying is just a guess.

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Sun May 15, 2016 4:40 pm

It is Highly unlikely that the torsion bars have been removed, what is even more likely those coil over shocks were added to "help" hold the rear up in an attempt to make up for sagging torsion bars that may just need to have the preload reset.

If that is the case (which it most likely is) then those coil shocks could be removed and replaced with something better once that's done. If you pull those shocks off of the rear (move the car around after to allow tne suspension to settle to its new ride height ) ,and you notice the rear of the car is sagging a lot the you will most likely end up needing to reindex the spring plates. Its not a difficult job, but one that needs to be understood before you tear into things.

For an off road car a sight positive angle (top of the rear tires leaning out) is desirable , but an excessive amount (spring plates riding on the lower stops) should be avoided since that's where the dangerous handling would begin to rear its ugly head.

Theirs lots of information about spring plate reindexing on here, and if you search around even some good information about swing axle setups as well. The best source (and most relevant for what you're dealing with ) is in the kit car/ fiberglass buggy section. A lot of those are swing axle, and very close weight wise to a rail so the setup information is useful (unless it's for a lowered buggy, then its not so relevant).

Don't let the fact its a swing axle scare you into believing you Have to convert to IRS , as long as you operate within its design limits and understand the slightly quirky handling their tough to beat, and will take you anywhere you want to go.

Just out of curiosity is the red part of the body canvas? I like how it looks,and whoever made it did a nice looking job.

Mon May 16, 2016 6:51 pm

Thanks for the info guys. I will dive into it and have more questions I am sure.
Yes, the red is canvas. Snaps on and off. I really liked the way it looks. I suspect that the rollover protection isn't what would be considered ideal, but I plan on keeping the dirty side down.

Sun May 29, 2016 9:36 pm

Well, I haven't dived into the swing arm preload yet. I did break it again, though. I spun another hub. I am not sure what is going on. I tightened it really good. 1/2 inch socket, breaker bar and a 2 foot cheater. I did not give it every thing I had, becasue I am firmly convinced I can break anything with my gorilla mode. Did I not get this nut tight enough? I was out doing donuts and spinning the 31's that are on this thing pretty good both times I spun the hub. Do I need to make a conversion to handle the power? When I tear it down, I will get some pics to show.

Mon May 30, 2016 7:56 am

1/2 socket (tools) will hurt you.... Get 3/4 in drive tools, 1-7/16 socket, 3/4 x 18 breaker bar and 4-6 foot cheater....Tighten nut to minimum 217 ft-lbs (factory setting) then go a bit more... And more till holes for cotter pin in axle line up with castle nuts....

If you are squeamish on just gronking it real tight, get torque multiplier for doing axle nuts and flywheel gland nuts or make extension tools for torque wrench...

VW specific torque multiplier..
\

4:1 torgque multiplier (usually up to 1000 Ft-Lbs (output) with max 250 ft-lbs input).

With torque wrench extension what ever you see on torque wrench is exactly double if extension (a) is exactly same length as wrench (L)..

Dale

Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:58 am

Thanks Dale. I won't have time to tear into it for a couple of weeks, but I will just pick up new hubs (may as well do the other side at the same time) and plan on torquing the snot out of it.

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:17 pm

Well, I put another drum on it a few months back. Flat towed it about 25 miles, then rode it in the sandy washes for a few hours, then drove it on the highway at 65 about 18 of those miles. Then, it spun another drum. I hooked it up to the truck and pulled it home. Haven't touched it since until this week.
(Been out of work with no funds) Finally get back to working on it.

I found myself at the local BAP buying 2 more drums and castle nuts. I am pretty sure that the axle threads on the axle I keep spinning are bad. It seems like the castle nut jumped a thread or two. There is no way it spun off, as it was cotter pinned and the pin never moved. I picked up a 3/4" torque wrench as well.

I'm looking at this thing thinking that even if I torque it down (if it doesn't jump a thread while torqueing) it will most likely do the same thing, jump a thread. Definition of insanity, right? So, I pulled the engine and pulled the whole transaxle out. Left axle housings, drums, everything attached to the transmission. Took it down to Don's tranny shop here in town.

He said that it is a 6v tranny. Also pointed out that the axle boot was torn and open. He said that the tranny was probably toast. The only problem I had besides the drums spinning was that reverse was boogered and would not stay in for more than a second or so.

I left him all the parts I had rounded up and gave him instructions to make do with what I gave him. He is going to replace the axle that has been giving me problems.

I will be picking it up in the morning.

Any thoughts?

Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:30 pm

Having the engine and transaxle out got me working on another project I have been planning for a while. I had a buddy break a piece of .063 aluminum so that I can drop the gas tank lower than it sits now, and make a small "bed" or "trunk" above it for coolers, etc.

The question I have is the mounting points for the fuel system. The gas tank was gravity fed into an electric pump. Then, the pump forced the fuel to the carbs.

From highest to lowest points, the fuel system was like this

Highest carbs
shut off valve at bottom of tank
Lowest fuel pump

What I have planned is as follows

Highest carbs
bottom of tank (line will go to a remote shut off valve)
fuel pump
Lowest shut off valve

Basically, the fuel will go down to the lowest point of my shut off valve,
then go slightly up to the fuel pump, then get pumped up to the carbs.

Will this work, or should I relocate my fuel pump to sit lower than the shut off valve?

BTW< I have Delortos

Thanks,

Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:40 am

Well, I got the whole shebang back together this past weekend. I replaced the fuel lines, filters and shut off valve. I also built a "trunk/tank cover" out of aluminum so that the fuel tank got dropped 6 inches into the frame. Turned out really well. Also relocated the shut off valve so that it is more easily accessible.

I also addressed an ongoing issue. Previously, the running lights did not get turned on in the first position of the switch when the headlights come on. They would only turn on in the second positions. Also, the brake lights only worked when the engine was running. Now, the brake lights work at all times, and the running lights come on with the headlights in both positions. I also added a pair of 6" CREE LED lights to act as the high beams.

Drove her around this weekend, and also to the shop this morning(to have them re-torque the axle nuts) and it runs really well. I have my fingers crossed!! Going to take it on a poker run in a couple of weekends.

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Got her out and about a little last weekend and all good so far. Just running around in the soft sand and gravel down in the wash and some stoplight/secondary roads. Haven't hammered on it yet.

Did get some more wiring done on it. Installed a small amplifier so we can hear the stereo, and installed a pair of 12 v plugs. Should be all ready for the run next weekend.

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:48 pm

Well, made it back from the run last weekend. Flat towed up there great, and it started and ran okay. I think it fouled the plugs, because you had to give it a bit of gas to get it going. Anyways, made it about 400 feet and found out that there was no way I was keeping up with any of the RZR'S. I need a lot more suspension. No surprise there.

This thing wants to haul serious ass. Hammer it in second, and away you go. But, the lack of suspension meant that I was the last one to every stop. We were running with a Class 1 car, and 3 RZR 1000 crew cabs in our group. Everything was going good until I hammered it real hard through about a half hour of rough stuff (stayed out in front of a couple of RZRs for most of that time). But, when I stopped, I saw tranny fluid running off of the driver's side lower shock mount. I looked, and there appears to be a plug of some sort missing about 6" inboard from the backing plate, and the fluid appears to be running out of that. I stuffed a stick in there and duct taped the sh%& out of it. Next time I hit a road, I eased into 4th and buzzed back to camp.

It was fine on the road in 4th, but when I turned into camp, it ground real bad. I literally had to push it the last 100'.

The next day, I somehow managed to remove the fill plug on the tranny (that was a freaking nightmare without the right tool). I pulled a 17mm nut off the buggy and used half of it to insert in the plug, and used the other half as a purchase for the wrench. I went to fill the tranny with oil (because that is what I had) , and it took less than a 1/4 qt. So, I hooked it up and flat towed it home.

Get home, and the fu&*(ing windshield has a giant star in it, and the front two wheels are about scrubbed off. I don't loose my cool easy, and I didn't then, but I was not happy!!

Get it in the garage, and then, it pukes all of the tranny fluid/oil. There was quite a large puddle on the floor by the next morning. I am hoping that is a good sign.

So, overall impressions. This thing is freaking fast. It needs about 4-6" more suspension travel. I am going to do some research about those weird plugs on the axle housing, and clean, then reassemble, and fill the tranny. Get it back out on the road and see if it still engages and shifts.

I thought that this would be the most reliable thing that did the run, but I guess not. Made it back to camp, but only because I was smart enough to head straight there. Kinda disenchanted at this point. WHat more can I do to it? Give it love, take to to the right shop, and it almost leaves me sitting in the middle of nowhere.

Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:37 pm

That "plug of some sort missing about 6" inboard from the backing plate" is probably the tapered pin that holds the hub casting to the axle tube. That pin takes suspension loads adn without it, the axle housing is moving on the axle tube. This allows oil past the end of the axle tube and into that part of the axle housing, where it shouldn't be. Then the oil leaks out.

You'll need to take the trans to somebody who knows swingaxle transmissions to get it fixed. Not just any ol' mechanic. Cause most won't have a clue what the hell the thing is in the 1st place. You can fix it yourself, but I get the impression that it would be a lot of learning for you at this point.

In order for your car to keep up with Razors will take a LOT of fabrication and modification to what you have there. 1st off, as we said before, those crappy EMPI coilover shocks need to hit the land fill and get replaced with some real shock absorbers. The stock torsion bars will probably work for you for a few steps up in chassis performance otherwise, but eventually you may need to step them up.

I would strongly recommend that you step up the safety of your car, roll cage and harnesses for that kind of riding. The way it is may be fine for car shows on the lawn at the park. But it's not ready for trying to beat Razors and Class 1 race cars! It's a weak design.

Of course the stock Razor cage and many of the aftermarket cages for them aren't what I would call a real roll cage either.