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Mon May 16, 2016 9:01 pm

So after getting out of the military and moving twice, I'm finally starting to get back to work on my '65. I've had a single relief case hanging around but just recently had time to measure it. It has never been cut, and so far seems like it is rebuildable. I was just going to build a stocker out of it, but the whole just add this, just add that, kinda kreeps in. Most likely it will get a set of Kads that I have laying around and maybe a W163 cam? Not sure on stroke/pistons/heads. But what is the max CC you can safely get out of the single relief cases? I'm thinking full flow but keeping the inline cooler. Maybe adding a separate cooler as well. I believe it is a U case, but its not in front of me right now. Type III anyway.. Inputs are welcome. Thx.

Tue May 17, 2016 5:27 am

Not the resident expert.
But have been running a single relief stroker since the early 80's

As long as it is the large oil passage/good pick up tube there is not much wrong with using it.
With the single relief and its three way function it is more difficult to get the pressure and flow correct so that it passes oil through the cooler.

Mine has been a 2110 for 30+ years. It is now a 2387.
I have a really odd application for my engine, but I run an external pressure regulator and no cooler on the case. But a lot of that is due to clearance issues.

Tue May 17, 2016 8:04 am

The single relief cases are junk line is BS. With the right mods you can build as big as you need. On my H case 1835 I used a external pressure relief valve and a real temp controlled oil thermostat. It cools and oils better than a stock dual relief engine.

Dan

Tue May 17, 2016 8:09 am

Uncut case?

I wouldnt build a drag motor with it, but take your time and build it right, and put the right oil in it (none of that 20W50 tar, if its fresh go 10W30 or straight 30, single releifs like thinner oil) i wouldnt have an issue getting it checked out, full flowed, and going for a mild stroker. 74 crank, thickwall 92's, counterweighted crank, and a pair of 40IDF would be a decent little build for sure...

Tue May 17, 2016 8:11 am

Wouldn't oil flow have more to do with the RPM of the motor not the size? :?

Tue May 17, 2016 8:44 am

midtravelmidengine wrote: Wouldn't oil flow have more to do with the RPM of the motor not the size? :?

Yes and no.

Depends on oil galley size, pump size, oil viscosity.

It is definitely a Good Idea™ to not get too crazy on the oil system on a single relief build, since they have slightly smaller oil galleys than a dual relief case. Don't go larger than a 26mm pump, keep the oil thin enough to actually flow where it needs to (if your new engine needs thick sludge to run maybe you need to learn how to choose bearings properly), keep your oil lines smooth and short. I don't know that I would do an external cooler, as the stock doghouse cooler is plenty when the proper tin and seals are used.

Excessive oil pressure and unnecessarily high viscosity will make the oil hotter than it needs to be. Keep that in mind and build away. At high RPM improperly thought out systems will have issues with lubrication, but that's why we set them up sensibly.

Tue May 17, 2016 9:31 am

Is it a large stud pump, or a small stud? They can be interchanged, but it takes some work. Nobody makes a full flow cover for a small stud pump, and stock size is 21mm. Just another consideration

Tue May 17, 2016 10:11 am

Thanks for the replies. I'll try to answer the questions I saw.

It has the small pick up tube, but 8mm oil pump studs.

It will get an upright cooler. If it can't cool enough on that, an external would have to be used.

With the small pick up tube, this might not be a good idea?

I kinda wanted to use these Kads for something lol.

Maybe just grab some 88's and a cheater cam and call it a day? If I go this route, it sure would get built a lot quicker.. I have a 1600 dual relief 8mm head stud engine in my car right now that might make a better candidate for a stroker.

Tue May 17, 2016 10:48 am

Pruneman99 wrote: Thanks for the replies. I'll try to answer the questions I saw.

It has the small pick up tube, but 8mm oil pump studs.

It will get an upright cooler. If it can't cool enough on that, an external would have to be used.

With the small pick up tube, this might not be a good idea?

I kinda wanted to use these Kads for something lol.

Maybe just grab some 88's and a cheater cam and call it a day? If I go this route, it sure would get built a lot quicker.. I have a 1600 dual relief 8mm head stud engine in my car right now that might make a better candidate for a stroker.

If by upright cooler you mean doghouse style and not the earlier one that sits inside the shroud you should be fine. I wouldn't do an external cooler, as they generally aren't needed unless you are in extreme heat or hauling a load of stuff in a bus. 220° oil is not too hot.

Small pickup is fine, just don't go trying to spin high RPM with it, it won't be able to pick up the oil fast enough for crazy applications. Do a deep sump, they are cheap and more oil is always a good thing. Blueprint up a 26mm pump and grab a full flow cover. I would build it up no hesitation.

Do you have cylinder heads already? If you have stock bore heads and need machine work done anyway cut it for 90.5's, or machine-in 88's. Should last a good long while. Or, drop in a 74mm crank and use stock size pistons. Either would be a nice setup.

74x88, 74x90.5 or 74x92, with kadrons would be a torquey little guy that would do well if thought out properly on this case.

But, it depends on what you want. I would build up a stocker or just a bit bigger with full flow on the single relief, and use a dual relief if you want to go big and plan on keeping it a while.

Tue May 17, 2016 12:32 pm

I have a set of China? Dual port heads. They have very little use on them as they were stripped from this engine and it was crushing valve springs on #3. It was a "fresh" rebuild.. Really the PO bought a bunch of new parts and slapped it together. It didnt work out lol. I suspect that the geometry was not set up right. They will most likely need to be rebuilt so cutting them is no big deal. I can fluff and buff at the same time. So TW 88's might be a good choice. I like the idea of the 74mm crank to build a mini-stroker.. But I was talking about the upright cooler inside the fan shroud. I have a OE 36hp shroud sitting on a shelf as well. If this is terrible idea, I could shell out for one of the scat ones so I can convert to a doghouse setup. I'm not looking for a 9k rev monster, but 5-6k limit would be nice in SHORT bursts. Maybe I could get away with the upright cooler as long as I use a thinish oil. Its going into a '65 bug so no heavy pulling etc.

Tue May 17, 2016 1:52 pm

some cases have small oil gallys, if I were to use one of those I would carfuly open up the gallys and do any other oiling mods needed to be sure it survived/s. I have atleast 2 of those cases, like new.one might be a nos case.and 1 that is a duel relief casting but machined for single relief. someday I will build them with stroker cranks I have laying around gathering dust like thew cases. my only draw back is not having a balancer to do the cranks.

Tue May 17, 2016 2:41 pm

Does anyone have a picture of which oil passages are smaller and can be opened up/modded to make improvements on the existing case? If its gonna cost 1,000 in machine work, obviously that wouldn't make dollar sense. Or can this be done by hand in an afternoon?

Tue May 17, 2016 2:44 pm

Hopefully I can get into the garage tonight and start cleaning up this case a bit more and doing inspections so I'd like to know what to look for/measure.

Tue May 17, 2016 4:39 pm

midtravelmidengine wrote: Wouldn't oil flow have more to do with the RPM of the motor not the size? :?
sharp guy. I agree. It should be rpm, or hp, or some combination of them.

I say, the limit should be kadrons! your not allowed to put in bigger vents LOL

Tue May 17, 2016 5:05 pm

Just let the Kads be the rev limiter? I can see that working.. Grab a cam made for restrictor plate engines like a split duration web? I don't care if this thing falls on its face past 5.5k really.. So even a milder cam might be better.

So thinking:
74mm crank
88a thick wall machine in head
Stock dual port heads with clean up only
Single HD springs
Solid shafts
Aluminum pushrods
Stock rods (or Porsche length if some can be found at a decent price)
Cam? Would prefer to use 1.1 rockers because I have them already
1 3/8 merged exhaust or stock heaterboxes.

Tue May 17, 2016 5:59 pm

All this talk about the oiling system and no one has asked about the head studs. That is really what you should be concerned with when using an early case. It needs case savers and 8mm studs. If not the probability of pulling a stud on your fresh engine is high.

Tue May 17, 2016 7:23 pm

Inserts would be nice but I have never had the head studs pull on a single port. 1641cc is fine, so why not try the 88X74 ie. 1800cc Probably fine but I would stick with a stock or even go to the Pict 28 carb. Stock Single Port Heads (Not Dual Port Heads) , And a "Good Quality" Filter Oil Pump! W-100 Cam ok.

Tue May 17, 2016 7:52 pm

Head studs might be a problem. 10mm without case savers. If I'm sending the case for cutting/inspection, I thought I would have case savers installed for the 10mm studs. This won't be getting any kind of turbo. Compression would have to be toward the mild side. Are the 10mm studs that bad? If I go with the 1800 (74x88) I would think they would be OK.

How would keeping it single port help prevent head stud pulling? I would have to source single port Kad manifolds. I do have a few good single port heads laying around as well.

I did have a single port 1600 and it pulled harder than my dual port, but I'm sure there were other factors in play.there. But I'm not opposed to the idea of having the single port heads rebuilt instead if they will somehow play nicer on a single relief case.

Tue May 17, 2016 8:47 pm

Well they would be easier on it I think. But what about cooling Dual Port heads need a Dog House Fan shroud, a 37mm Fan, and an Aluminium off-set oil cooler etc... You going to have to find all this stuff to do a dual port. It should be easy to fine a dual port engine to rebuild with all the right stuff. But barring that you could do it if you have all the stuff. A good 26mm or 30mm filter pump would give it great oil pressure.
Here everything you need is done! AS-41 standard 85.5 Case Price: 250. Actually I should get it. Dual Relief & it will fit into my Bus or a Bug. Are you putting it into a bug?

Tue May 17, 2016 9:19 pm

Yep '65 bug. That case looks to be a proper deal but I'm leery about buying a case I can't put my hands on. Although I would hope sambaites would be more trust worthy than the yahoos on craigslist. Anyway, going to a new case kinda makes the whole topic moot.