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Sun May 22, 2016 5:16 pm

i have read several threads about the urethane bushings and the rubber bushings and i am wondering how much is sales hype and how much is real use experience. there is quite a bit of price difference for a complete front end set and i am wondering if it is worth the money for the urethane given the existing rubber bushing have lasted 20 years and 260,000 thousand miles. are the urethane bushing made in germany or us or uk. is there more than one brand?

Sun May 22, 2016 6:53 pm

Go drive a van with urethane installed.
Feel the difference.

Sun May 22, 2016 7:11 pm

You will most likely get most replies saying that urethane bushings are the best thing since sliced bread. However, a friend of mine in Germany who is an Audi tech and grew up in a family of automotive professionals gave me some feedback about his dealings with Proflex. After having his front upper control arm bushings squeek for the second time after a re-lube in less than 60,000kms he got in touch with Proflex to ask for replacements wondering if his may be defective. After a few conversations with them Proflex concluded that there was nothing wrong with the product and that he simply needs to re-lube them when they squeek. I read a very similar story on a performance import site a while ago from a guy in the US.

My friend, as well as many other German vanagon guys have gone back to rubber bushings due to the squeek issue and lack of support from the manufacturer.

As for the ride, there is indeed a difference in the performance of the suspension. There will be less 'give' in the bushings thereby the van will have less roll and an overall sportier feel but also a bit of a harsher ride. That being said, keep in mind that your comparison should be a van with newer rubber bushings, not one with 260,000 miles on it :wink:

Having a lifted Syncro I myself will probably be installing the urethane bushings on the lower front control arm and rubber everywhere else.

Sun May 22, 2016 7:24 pm

^^^ Good review.

I have 100% PowerFlex bushings and would not go back. The ride is far from harsh and indeed much tighter (sportier). I have had some minor squeaking issues (which can also happen with rubber), but I'm strongly starting to believe that the squeaking isn't the upper control arm bushings it's more likely the rubber bushings on the shock mounts!

Regardless, the PowerFlex power steering bushing alone made as much, if not more, of an improvement in handling (cornering, crosswinds, etc) than upgrading my wheels and tires from stock 14" to 15".

Contact Christopher at T3Technique. He sells both PowerFlex and Whiteline bushings. Phenomenal customer service.

push kick wrote: ...there is quite a bit of price difference for a complete front end set and i am wondering if it is worth the money...

True, but a lot of the cost of replacing the bushings is in labor.

Sun May 22, 2016 7:57 pm

Urethane, hands down. The best thing since sliced bread, lol.

Yes, it's true they can squeak, but lubricating is easy and the performance gains far outweigh this minor annoyance, imo. Also, I'm not sure rubber is what it used to be. Much like we are seeing with window and door rubber, the quality of rubber seems to have gone done over the years. I'm not sure why this is the case, perhaps environmental reasons? I not only see this with VW, but every manufacturer. Plastics seem to have gotten better, rubber seems to have gotten worse. Then again, I have no evidence... this is simply my observation.

Another consideration of the urethane vs rubber debate, would be that of performance longevity. New rubber may be great, but over the course of the years urethane will hold up and perform better/closer to its original install quality. I know powerflex offers a lifetime warranty, not sure about whiteline. And yes T3 is the place to buy.

-Kevin

Sun May 22, 2016 8:03 pm

I replaced a bunch of bushes with new "quality" rubber (oem?) and they failed in very short order. They definitely did not last 30 years. So I put in urethane by default.

I pray my van can 60,000 km between squeaks.

A guy can dream.

Neil2

Sun May 22, 2016 8:35 pm

61Scout wrote: Also, I'm not sure rubber is what it used to be. Much like we are seeing with window and door rubber, the quality of rubber seems to have gone done over the years. I'm not sure why this is the case, perhaps environmental reasons?

I've heard that the quality of rubber is not really the issue but rather changes in environmental air quality cause the same quality rubber to degrade much faster.

Sun May 22, 2016 9:32 pm

I think you all probably know where I stand on this subject, but I would like to say (again) that I have about 100,000 miles on my daily driver with Powerflex bushings installed and the ride quality is better than with the stock rubber bushings and is dead quite with the same grease that was originally put there when I installed them. This is not hype at all; it's the honest truth.

The number one reason for squeaking is either the wrong grease or not enough grease. The grease that Powerflex supplies is not adequate in quality or quantity. This is why I recommend CV2 for use with the urethane bushings.

I completely agree with those what have said that urethane bushings can be harsh and they can squeak. It is 100% true of that many of the urethane bushings on the market do result in a harsh ride quality and it's true that using the wrong grease can lead to squeaking, but it's not universally true of all urethane bushings.

Canasync, I have had many conversations with Powerflex about the grease that they supply in their kits. It's just not the right product for the job and if the guy you know in Germany was using the Powerflex supplied grease, I don't doubt one bit that he had trouble with squeaking.

Mon May 23, 2016 4:45 pm

is there anyone who has a van near dayton ohio that has urethane suspension bushings installed? what effect does the radius arm bushings have on the ride if you install them with urethane bushings?

Mon May 23, 2016 4:54 pm

pushkick wrote: what effect does the radius arm bushings have on the ride if you install them with urethane bushings?

The replacement rubber radius rod bushings are much harder than the original rubber radius rod bushings. The urethane replacements will give you a better ride quality than the replacement rubber version. That's not just conjecture; I actually tested the two different urethane versions against the rubber replacements.

I have made this offer before and I will make it here again. If you install the Powerflex urethane bushings and you don't like the ride quality, I will buy them back from you. I have made this offer numerous times and I have never once had to buy a set back from anyone that didn't like the ride quality.

Mon May 23, 2016 6:00 pm

Another benefit to powerflex. Because they are split they are much easier to install and if they do squeek down the road, much easier to re-lube.
Brian :D

Mon May 23, 2016 6:46 pm

Most every original rubber bushing I pulled off my van (a 1989 with close to 200k on it now) was in excellent shape and had many many years of service left.

That said.. I did a fairly complete overall of both front and rear suspension.. and I ended up with a mix of rubber and urethane (Proflex as well as other brands)

Urethane:
1. UCA bushings, front. For me personally.. the urethane Profelx UCA bushings were a must... and pricey, IIRC.
However, the rubber aftermarket ones were crap... and nothing is pricier than having to re-do a job only 12 mos later because parts failed.
2. Steering rack urethane bushings.. probably gave most bang for buck. Relatively cheap.. and immediate performance gain.

A mix of both:
3. Anti-roll bar clamp bushings. My over-sized aftermarket anti-roll bar in front uses urethane in the main clamps.. biggest advantage is they fit properly!.. but these ones squeak (not Proflex) and require a re-lube after winter... or repeated wet travels. Endlink is in rubber (new) And I have downlink bushings in rubber and a set in urethane.. No noticeable difference between the two. Stuck with the rubber ones, for now.. May swap out next time I tear down in there for whatever reason.
4. Rear anti -roll bar.. Also all urethane.. never had rubber there.. Couldn't tell you if there's a difference.

Good ol' rubber
5. Rear control arms. I have urethane in the rear swing arms.. Couldn't tell you the difference between them and the original rubbers. (My rear anti-roll bar does so much back there that I think it renders that bushing nearly un-noticeable.. either way)

6. Radius rod bushings rubber. Replaced with new rubber. No complaints.
7. Lower control arm front.. main bushing rubber replaced rubber. I can;t imagine this one being a big difference.

Mon May 23, 2016 8:39 pm

insyncro wrote: Go drive a van with urethane installed.
Feel the difference.

Most of us don't have that option. It's not so simple to get behind the wheel of another vanagon, much less one that might have urethane bushings when you don't happen to run a shop working on them.

Mon May 23, 2016 8:46 pm

DAV!D wrote: insyncro wrote: Go drive a van with urethane installed.
Feel the difference.

Most of us don't have that option. It's not so simple to get behind the wheel of another vanagon, much less one that might have urethane bushings when you don't happen to run a shop working on them.

I don't run a shop working on Vanagons any longer.
Not worth the time or effort :!:

Y'all are into VW gatherings, go to where the vans are :idea:

Tue May 24, 2016 1:36 am

I was quite skeptical about the squeak from experiencing crappy poly bushings in busses and bugs.
I have burley motorsports and powerflex lower control arm and trailing arm poly bushings in different vans for years and haven't noticed squeaking.
I have been running poly steering rack bushings since '10 and they haven't made any noise at all but the improvement is noticeable.
Poly radius rod bushing kit replaced the always smashed rubber bushings and they haven't been an issue. I took apart the front end of the van the other day and noticed that the poly bushings(year old) are still in great shape, the new rubber replacements on the truck got smashed and distorted quicker than expected.
I have no experience with poly bushings in any other position. I chose to install poly in those positions as that are what holds the alignment in spec. and will carry the van down the road square.
Poly bushings are much easier to install than stock.
My truck got all new rubber bushings and the ride improved dramatically from the OG bushings, the poly bushings provide the same ride.

The GF comments on how well the hardtop syncro drives without knowing what suspension upgrades have or haven't been done(stock except for the poly bushings listed above). Her comparison experience is from her '91 GL that rides quite nice, I always enjoy driving that van.

Tue May 24, 2016 1:36 pm

I second the steering bushings and anti-sway to be poly, and judiciously used elsewhere. Depending upon whether you want a firm ride that works well on nice roads or a little softer for more comfort, pay attention to the hardness of the rest if going all poly. And use the CV-2 grease.

Tue May 24, 2016 3:34 pm

RichBenn wrote: Depending upon whether you want a firm ride that works well on nice roads or a little softer for more comfort, pay attention to the hardness of the rest if going all poly. And use the CV-2 grease.

Paying attention to the durometer (hardness) of the urethane bushings is a very important thing. Not all urethane bushings are made the same. Every manufacturer has their own secret recipe and there can be a huge difference between them. Powerflex offers the best ride quality for the Vanagon...period! Whiteline urethane bushings are slightly stiffer and if you compare Powerflex and Whiteline back to back you can feel a slight difference. There is another brand of urethane bushing on the market and when you compare those back to back with the Powerflex bushing, there is a marked difference. All of this testing was done strictly with the front lower control arm bushings on the same van with zero other changes in between.

Tue May 24, 2016 5:00 pm

Chris, It appears that your new Syncro sway-bar comes with Whiteline bushings??

If this is true can the Powerflex be substituted? Would there be a mechanical or performance benefit for this change from your kit listing in the online catalog?

I am after a comfortable ride on largely segmented concrete highways subject to crosswinds and occasional wash board dirt roads; medium weight 7-passenger '87 Syncro with 16" CLK's, stock springs, EMU shocks (which I am not too sure about).

Tue May 24, 2016 5:05 pm

slo356 wrote: Chris, It appears that your new Syncro sway-bar comes with Whiteline bushings??

If this is true can the Powerflex be substituted? Would there be a mechanical or performance benefit for this change from your kit listing in the online catalog?

I am after a comfortable ride on largely segmented concrete highways subject to crosswinds and occasional wash board dirt roads; medium weight 7-passenger '87 Syncro with 16" CLK's, stock springs, EMU shocks (which I am not too sure about).

The anti-roll bar kits come with custom bar to chassis mount bushings and Whiteline upper endlink bushings. The reason for this is because unlike the upper control arm, lower control arm, radius rod and rear trailing arm locations, having the anti-roll bar bushings relatively stiff will enhance the effectiveness of the bar without sacrificing ride quality. If the anti-roll bar bushing are to soft, the bar becomes less effective because some of the energy transfer gets absorbed into the bushing as it deflects.

Tue May 24, 2016 6:46 pm

Are the Powerflex yellow radius rod bushings thinner than the stock rubber, allowing more adjustment for castor?