TheSamba.com :: View topic

Thu May 26, 2016 11:53 pm

'89 westy.
My brake pedal travels a lot before it seems to do anything.
And it's definitely on the soft side as far as vehicles I've driven. I have to push it quite far to stop. I've yet to test stopping distance, or try an emergency braking situation..

I had the rear brakes and bearings done, and the mechanics were trying to solve the soft pedal. They had trouble with it for a few days, and it took replacing the MC and front calipers, and of course bleeding the system many times.
They claim to have solved it.

But it still feels pretty similar to me. When I hop in my GTI after driving the van, it's a world of difference and I'm almost sent through the windshield on my first brake after vanning it a while. I'm a relatively new vanagon owner, so I'm not sure what to expect.

Fri May 27, 2016 1:33 am

What did the pedal feel like before brake work was done?
Why was brake work done?
Given your comments on mechanics "solving" the issue, it may be that
they assembled the rear brakes incorrectly. OR....

They are assembled correctly but the adjuster was not adjusted as far out
as need be. IF that's the case, over time and use, the pedal height may
correct. IF so, then the auto adjusters are doing their job correctly.

OR.... if the adjuster was not set far out enough, the lever could easily skip
a few teeth and remain in that position; the parts in that system need to push
against the shoes in order to work.

Neil.

Fri May 27, 2016 11:32 am

do hoses as per below

Fri May 27, 2016 11:36 am

The answer to this question is that they will feel and have a pedal height as per how much air is still in the system and where the rear brakes have been adjusted.

I like a pedal that is firm from the get go, so the rear pads will be dragging at first, than break in.

The emergency brake lever is a good indicator of the rear adjustment as well.
I prefer 3 click and it will keep the van still on an incline.

Fri May 27, 2016 11:53 am

The brake pedal should feel like it has some little bumps/ridges on it to stop your foot slipping off

Sat May 28, 2016 12:40 am

The pedal felt similar before, maybe a little softer (resistance felt when pushing down).
Brake work was done because the rear drums were very worn
The rear shoes, cylinders, drums and hoses were replaced.
I guess I'll let it "break in" a bit.
According to the shop, the system was bled several times in an attempt to correct the pedal feel, along with replacing MC and front calipers+pads. So i assume it's done as well as possible. This wasn't some random mechanic, but a fancy vanagon-only shop.

Sat May 28, 2016 4:16 am

chris_d wrote: The pedal felt similar before, maybe a little softer (resistance felt when pushing down).
Brake work was done because the rear drums were very worn
The rear shoes, cylinders, drums and hoses were replaced.
I guess I'll let it "break in" a bit.
According to the shop, the system was bled several times in an attempt to correct the pedal feel, along with replacing MC and front calipers+pads. So i assume it's done as well as possible. This wasn't some random mechanic, but a fancy vanagon-only shop.

By break in I mean that when the pads are actually making contact with the drums when adjusted properly, they will wear and than break in.

If the pedal is soft for starters it is not going to get better.

Sat May 28, 2016 6:33 am

If the pedal is significantly firmer with the parking brake set than when it's off, then you know the rear shoes aren't fully adjusted. If they didn't arc the shoes to the drums, then it's possible for lots of adjustment to be lost due to poor contact between the two surfaces. I've found the Vanagon rear brakes to be a rather fiddly setup to get just right

Sat May 28, 2016 6:59 am

I had a breakdown where the plastic nipple feeding brake fluid into the back of the master cylinder cracked from flexing the braided black tube. Symptoms were what you dscribed. By the time I figured out what was wrong the fluid had drained down under the floor mat and ruined everything.

Sat May 28, 2016 7:29 am

If you pump the brakes, do they get progressively firmer? Mine do, which isn't reassuring...

Sat May 28, 2016 8:02 am

Royb wrote: If you pump the brakes, do they get progressively firmer? Mine do, which isn't reassuring...

Not reassuring at all! You most likely have air in the system. bleed it now!

Sat May 28, 2016 3:14 pm

Royb wrote: If you pump the brakes, do they get progressively firmer? Mine do, which isn't reassuring...

No, they do not get firmer on mine.

Sat May 28, 2016 3:17 pm

insyncro wrote: The answer to this question is that they will feel and have a pedal height as per how much air is still in the system and where the rear brakes have been adjusted.

I like a pedal that is firm from the get go, so the rear pads will be dragging at first, than break in.

The emergency brake lever is a good indicator of the rear adjustment as well.
I prefer 3 click and it will keep the van still on an incline.

Haven't tested on an incline, but mines an automatic and in drive (no gas no foot brake) on a flat road, a single click on the emergency brake is enough to slow the car (but not stop).
hm.

Sun May 29, 2016 7:30 am

chris_d wrote: insyncro wrote: The answer to this question is that they will feel and have a pedal height as per how much air is still in the system and where the rear brakes have been adjusted.

I like a pedal that is firm from the get go, so the rear pads will be dragging at first, than break in.

The emergency brake lever is a good indicator of the rear adjustment as well.
I prefer 3 click and it will keep the van still on an incline.

Haven't tested on an incline, but mines an automatic and in drive (no gas no foot brake) on a flat road, a single click on the emergency brake is enough to slow the car (but not stop).
hm.

That speaks of other issues than.

P valve, power booster, master cylinder, incomplete bleeding, front caliper pistons could be hanging up.......

Brakes are nothing to mess with.

Sounds to me like in an emergency stopping situation, your van's brakes will disappoint.

Take it back to the shop and drive carefully please.

Sun May 29, 2016 7:58 am

What I don't getvis why this place that allegedly repaired it released the Van when it wasn't repaired properly?

Take it back, give them the keys and tell them to fix it right.

Sun May 29, 2016 10:14 am

I bet they run up his bill.

replace the hoses

DIY and you'll know it's done right (hopefully)

Mon May 30, 2016 12:56 am

insyncro wrote: chris_d wrote: insyncro wrote: The answer to this question is that they will feel and have a pedal height as per how much air is still in the system and where the rear brakes have been adjusted.

I like a pedal that is firm from the get go, so the rear pads will be dragging at first, than break in.

The emergency brake lever is a good indicator of the rear adjustment as well.
I prefer 3 click and it will keep the van still on an incline.

Haven't tested on an incline, but mines an automatic and in drive (no gas no foot brake) on a flat road, a single click on the emergency brake is enough to slow the car (but not stop).
hm.

That speaks of other issues than.

What behavior were you expecting from the e-brake? One-click and full stop?

Mon May 30, 2016 7:34 am

Moving forward in the system and checking things is advised, the rears sound like they are adjusted up properly to me.

Mon May 30, 2016 7:42 pm

Thanks everyone for all the responses. I really appreciate the ability to toss a query out there and get different experiences.

So I did some more testing today.. I'm inclined to think the pedal feel is typical of these vans now, but I've listed out in detail to see if your experience differs.

Pedal:
1/4'' of un-resisted free-play. This sounds normal from what I can google.
4-4.5'' of total travel. (roughly measured linearly with measuring tape)
First 60% or so is pretty light, then the i start to feel more resistance.
Pedal does not bottom out.
Pumping has no effect.
Slow or Fast application of force results in same max depth.
Applying emergency brake at different amounts has no effect.

Braking:
Slightly disappointing performance by my book.
Relatively slow speed (10mph) parking lot speed, then I brake fast and hard.
Disappointed because in a normal car, a hard brake at that speed will stop the car immediately (as in the brakes lock the tires), sending me into my seatbelt uncomfortably.
In my vanagon, it takes about a parking space (very rough approx.) to stop and i feel like the brakes don't lock up the tires very quickly.

Am I expecting too much? I haven't driven vehicles this old before.

Mon May 30, 2016 7:51 pm

That braking distance does not sound normal. Since you are in Seattle with a ton of Vanagons near you I'd look for a sambanite near you to compare brakes with.