TheSamba.com :: View topic

Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:59 am

I have just bought a 73 convertible that is extremely rusty. I know I'm a little crazy to try and save it , but I just retired and have spent a lot years welding and fabricating. I just bought a front clip from Arizona and having it delivered to Michigan. Does anyone have any pictures where to cut and weld this car back together. I'm a newbee to the bug world so any input will be helpful .............THANKS!

Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:06 pm

Replacing the front clip wholesale is a more common repair on Standard bugs, not Supers, but that's not to say it can't be done. It will be a whole lot more complicated though.

Remember the Supers carry suspension loads through the body (Standards don't) so ideally the cut should be well forward of the strut towers and it will be critical to keep everything square and retain maximum strength in the body.

As for pictures, look in the Late Model Forum or Gallery, there are plenty of build threads / pictures there which will give you an idea of the construction of the Super front end and repair techniques.

Start your own build thread and post pictures too, others are always keen to see your progress and offer advice / encouragement when you hit problems - and it will be good to see another Super being saved :)

Good luck!

Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:30 pm

Thanks for the input. I have been going over as many pictures as I can find in the forums. When I get the front clip I may yet just remove the quarters and try to save as much of the original metal as possible . This super was so rusty in the steering support area that someone ( before me ) had pulled out the steering box and idler arm and replaced it with an aftermarket rack and pinion that bolted to the chassis. I do plan on a set of photos

Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:45 am

A cheap laser level will project straight vertical/horizontal cutting lines. Front/Rear clips are usually 'stepped' vertical-horizontal-vertical for extra strength.

Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:00 am

Also...bear in mind....and most do not realize this...the Super beetles with struts...just like the 411 and 412 before them, are "crash cell" cars. There are crush points built into the design that allow body deformation to absorb impact. You cannot just cut and then weld across these points without making a really weak and deformable chassis.

Usually the engineered weak point is either right even with the strut tower or immediately behind it. One of the prime objects is also to keep the fuel tank from getting crushed in a medium speed impact....so some of this is fuel tank location dependent. I know in the 411/412...the deformation point is just forward of the fuel tank putting it forward of the strut tower mount points and just aft of the centerline of the front axle.

So I would also concur that keeping your clip forward of the strut towers if probably best.

In a similar issue....it was really common on water cooled VW...especially mk 1 and 2 rabbit, sirroco and jetta...to cut the damaged front end off nearly at the fire wall...and weld in salvaged engine/fender support arms from another wreck. This is similar in nature to cutting off the rear frame horns of a type 1 beetle and trying to weld new ones in.

However the frame horns of a strut type Mk 1 water cooled car...are part of the crash cell. In almost every car I have seen where this is done...usually 3-5 years on down the line you have front fender to door fit issues and leaking windshields and alignment problems because the arms start to sag...because the mounting points they were welded to are engineered deformation points.

Ray

Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:21 pm

The firewall/wheel housing assembly might be able to be replaced as a unit. At that point I would not worry trying to replace them while still attached to each other. The piece under the tank is attached to the dash. Your going to get a chunk of metal that you will have to carefully separate the individual pieces.

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:20 am

Hopefully these photos show up ................The rust is bad

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:23 am

But as bad as it is the repairs have begun

Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:46 am

This is what I found for steering. (This is one way to get the steering off the body.)The extra U joint in the linkage gave the steering a jerky feeling. Notice all the tie rods and steering linkage are welded together

Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:10 am

jerrybromley wrote:

Ouch... that'll be new quarter panels for sure, the inner reinforcements look as rusty as the outer panel. Carefully check the front bulkhead too, if the quarters are that rusty you'll probably find more there. Bulkhead is a real pain to fix, but you sound like you have the time, motivation and skills to do it.
This thread has a lot of photos showing what is involved in a front quarter swap, which might help you.

jerrybromley wrote:

This is what I found for steering. (This is one way to get the steering off the body.)The extra U joint in the linkage gave the steering a jerky feeling. Notice all the tie rods and steering linkage are welded together
Ingenious install... Did that fit under an unmodified spare wheel well? But the lower UJ probably has too much angle, which is why it feels notchy. I guess the body prevents the rack being rotated upwards to reduce this angle?

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:39 am

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1575746.jpg

The hole that the steering linkage passes under the gas tank was enlarged but other than that it seems to have fit OK . I'm not sure but with a shorter or longer steering shaft (after market ) this may work a lot better. Not that I'm advocating this fix. I just thought it was creative

Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:53 am

As for the front quarter replacement . I have a front clip being shipped to me as I write from Arizona . I have never worked on any beetles so I am not sure whether I will try to replace the whole front clip or remove the quarters from the clip and install them seperately

Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:58 am

This photo (thanks Patrick_S) shows the panel structure behind the front quarter / inner wing

Here you can see the reinforcement channel behind the inner wing, that bridges the lower control arm / track rod to pick up on the body mount on the floorpan framehead. This structure provides the reaction forces for the steering assembly and supports the lower end of the strut tower, so is pretty important.

Cutting a 'clip' as done with a Standard Bug would substantially weaken this area, as the weld line would span these structures... Let alone the area where the strut tower fits to the inner wing, that has to be strongly tied back to the fuel tank support structure, which rigidises the front end similar to a strut brace.

Hopefully you can pick apart the clip you have purchased to separate any weld lines and recreate the original assembly as much as possible, this will be much stronger than a straight weld line.

The bracket pointing upwards in the photo attaches to the bulkhead and is likely hiding a lot more rot, so check this area carefully too. That area is a major headache to repair, and probably should be tacked first before the front quarters. There are a few build threads on the 'late model' forum, including mine (link below), showing what is involved.

Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:59 am

Thanks for the info. The clip is coming from Way Out Salvage that specializes in VW . I have had an extensive conversation on the phone with them . I guess I'm depending on them to get me what I need . When it arrives in a week or so I will post photos. ( and of course ask for advice ) Until then I still have a massive project and lots to do before summer

Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:28 am

Dodgy wrote: This photo (thanks Patrick_S) shows the panel structure behind the front quarter / inner wing

Here you can see the reinforcement channel behind the inner wing, that bridges the lower control arm / track rod to pick up on the body mount on the floorpan framehead. This structure provides the reaction forces for the steering assembly and supports the lower end of the strut tower, so is pretty important.

Very nice picture......and let me make a point. Really unless you are good at welding and have good tools....you do not want to be seperating many welds.

This panel....is designed to crush.....under.....in the areas forward of the axle centerline.....and out to the side slightly aft of the center of the strut unit. Its designed to allow the fuel tank to ride....upward.

See that dogleg welded around the wheel opening? If you look at that area carefully....right about where the oval hole is....the box structure thins there in several directions. That is a crush point.

See that large high point/crease with the part number decal to the right of it?......thats a fold point designed to let the fromt end fold backward in an impact while bleeding off energy.

Try to avoid cutting these areas. Convertibles have even more structure but usually in th3 back where its miaaing B and C pillars. Ray

Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:59 pm

Doesn't there have to be a safety cage aspect to the car in order to consider it having crumple zones? I just see the minimalist method to attach the 1302's steering to a standard beetle.

Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:14 pm

theKbStockpiler wrote: Doesn't there have to be a safety cage aspect to the car in order to consider it having crumple zones? I just see the minimalist method to attach the 1302's steering to a standard beetle.

No there doesn't....at least not back in those days. In fact.....the crumple zone front and rear was aftually being tried...precisely so that the box around the passengers did not have to be so strong.
Those were the early days of crumple zones. And to some extent.....the main cabin does have "some" structural triangulation.....but these were made in the days before anyone was required to do anything. VW was ahead of the curve.

The object was to allow the front end to "fold up"....burning off energy....instead of being rigid and transfering energy to the passenger cabin.
Kind of like having to stiff of a bumper.....which survives the 20 mph crash....but everythong behind it gets mashed. Ray

Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:09 pm

As promised, here are the pics of the front clip . Haven't even taken it off the trailer yet. It was cut with the door posts still attached. I don't think this will go too bad. The only part that gives me a little bit of concern is getting the windshield right . This was a hard top and mine is a convertible.

Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:30 pm

If you decide to detach the cowl from the wheel housings ,they are brazed together from the factory.

Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:48 am

I am going to replace the heater channels anyways, so my intention is to use the entire front clip and just install it on the new heater channel. I know I will have to salvage the convertible's heater channel support and the windshield but I think it will work out OK. A little more of a winter project than I was planning ...............but hey it's interesting