TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:55 am

I've got the engine out of my 84 1.9 and I'm trying to decide how desperately it needs a rebuild. The side clearance between the connecting rods and the crankshaft is about .015mm on all rods and Bently says wear limit is .7mm.

I've got the lifters out, cleaned and bled. The faces on all of them look good and are straight enough to stick to the table when oiled.

Here are pictures of the cam lobe for the cyl. 1&3 exhaust valve. All the others look about the same.

Are there any other things I can measure to decide how much life the engine has without splitting the case?

Also, any tips on removing a broken head stud? One of the upper middle studs snapped while I was torquing the cylinder head nuts. It broke near it's midpoint, so the rest of it is well inside the cooling jacket.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:10 am

The stellite is flaking off the lobes pictured.

Take the cases apart.

The camshaft looks beat up.

Time for a rebuild.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:02 am

appears tobe the cam has a rough surface, pitted, so it should be replaced. if you split the case you will be able to check the bearings on cam and crank. you have gotten this far, now split the case and take care of everything. thats what I would do.

good luck

Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:18 am

So if the crankshaft checks out ok, can I just replace the camshaft or do I need a whole rebuild kit? And if I am replacing the camshaft, I need to replace the lifters too?

Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:23 am

Cams and lifters should be replaced as a set. You should also use either specific break-in oil or a zinc additive to help the cam and lifters bed in properly on start up.

The crankshaft and connecting rods should be measured while the engine is apart. You want to be sure the crank journals and the connecting rods are round. If they measure out, then you can just reassemble with new bearings and be good.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:57 am

Wow.
So-- you would split the cases, install a new cam and cam bearings, forget about installing new crank bearings as long as you are in there.

Totally a very idiotic thought.
Go fetch All of the seals, gaskets, O- rings for the entire engine rebuild.

Do the rings, cylinders, & valves.

Don't jip the job.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:02 pm

Terry Kay wrote: Wow.
So-- you would split the cases, install a new cam and cam bearings, forget about installing new crank bearings as long as you are in there.

Totally a very idiotic thought.
Go fetch All of the seals, gaskets, O- rings for the entire engine rebuild.

Do the rings, cylinders, & valves.

Don't jip the job.

How about I re-phrase:

Is there any mechanical reason that a new camshaft requires a new crankshaft? For example: the interaction between camshaft and lifters or between cylinders and pistons. I'm not trying to cut corners; I'm trying to learn. God forbid I ask questions.

I agree that not replacing everything while the case is split would be less than wise, but there's no need to talk down to people.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:16 pm

Berkut wrote: I agree that not replacing everything while the case is split would be less than wise

This ^^^ answers all of your questions

It's similar to needing to replace the brake lining on a set of shoes on the front of a drum brake vehicle. You pull the drum that houses the bearings and the 50,000 mile seal that is worn. You install the shoes, see the wet area around the wheel cylinder ans then ask " Do I need to replace the wheel cylinder ( also the other side required at this point), the seal and should I repack the bearings"?

There is a gray area between Vanagon Specific repair/diagnostic and upgrade help here on the Samba ,or any other forum-pick one, and basic mechanical knowledge. When the forum turns into an online college for basic automotive repair and the specific technical assistance is lost, there will be some that shake thier head when responding.

There have been A TON of very knowledgeable elders that have left the forum for many reasons, this is one of them.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:20 pm

Whoa,

Nobody was talking down to anybody.
You asked a question, you got the right answer.

You want to split the cases more than once?
This is question of good , sound , common sense.

You asked the demeaning question of should you check out anything else.
I gave you the exact, and precise reply.

Here; dont do anything additional to the engine.
Do not invest any more time or money on it.
Replace the worn out cam, nothing else, toss it back together, toss it back in the van.

See how long it goes.

You shouldn't have ever asked that lame question.
I would suggest getting that engine to someone who does have a clue what he's doing, prior to you screwing it totally up.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:29 pm

Terry Kay wrote: Whoa,

Nobody was talking down to anybody.

Terry,

This is an example of talking down to someone:

Terry Kay wrote: Wow.
So-- you would split the cases, install a new cam and cam bearings, forget about installing new crank bearings as long as you are in there.
Totally a very idiotic thought.
.

BTW this is too:

Terry Kay wrote:
You shouldn't have ever asked that lame question.
I would suggest getting that engine to someone who does have a clue what he's doing, prior to you screwing it totally up.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:57 pm

"Are there any other things I can measure to decide how much life the engine has without splitting the case?

Also, any tips on removing a broken head stud? One of the upper middle studs snapped while I was torquing the cylinder head nuts. It broke near it's midpoint, so the rest of it is well inside the cooling jacket"

He's talking down to anyone here with one iota of any mechanical apptitude.

He not only has a junk cam, Had To Ask. An Opinion About That, and then wants to know if all of this warrants spliting the cases.
If he needs to seek the answer to his question, he should jump off of this job and get it to someone who doesn't require an answer book.

And this doesn't even enter into the bust head stud removal.

He's in way too deep, over his head, if he needs answers to the obvious.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:24 pm

I don't see how I was talking down to anyone. Everyone has to learn from somewhere; or are you going to tell us you were born with a wrench in one hand and a piston in the other?

I am well aware that having to replace the camshaft requires splitting the case. Having not split a case before, I am trying to get as much information as I possibly can before I actually do. And considering the difference in complexity between pulling the pistons off and splitting the whole case, I think knowing what measurements I can take would be a valuable skill.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 pm

Berkut wrote: I don't see how I was talking down to anyone. Everyone has to learn from somewhere; or are you going to tell us you were born with a wrench in one hand and a piston in the other?

I am well aware that having to replace the camshaft requires splitting the case. Having not split a case before, I am trying to get as much information as I possibly can before I actually do. And considering the difference in complexity between pulling the pistons off and splitting the whole case, I think knowing what measurements I can take would be a valuable skill.

OP, you are fine. :D

Ask away and some knowledgeable people will actually help you here.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 pm

[quote="newfisher"] Berkut wrote: So if the crankshaft checks out ok, can I just replace the camshaft or do I need a whole rebuild kit? And if I am replacing the camshaft, I need to replace the lifters too?

Yes.
Crank & rod bearings, crank seals, rings, maybe pistons, valves, guides, keepers.

If you are down to having the entire engine in pieces, replace everything with new.

Take all of the measurements out of the Bently, and apply as needed.

If you get lost.
Stop.

The point is, why in the heck would you take an engine totally down to nothing, and NOT rebuild the entire thing?
This would be an obvious, & usual path to take.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:08 pm

newfisher wrote: When the forum turns into an online college for basic automotive repair and the specific technical assistance is lost, there will be some that shake thier head when responding.

There have been A TON of very knowledgeable elders that have left the forum for many reasons, this is one of them.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Intolerance for new individuals asking questions and responding rudely to them is a much bigger issue on this forum than the fact that the new individual asked the question in the first place. I firmly believe that the general rudeness of some members accounts for the absence of a lot more knowledgeable people than the fact that new members ask simple questions. The way that you and TK have rudely responded to this individual is far, far, far more stupid and idiotic than his questions.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:01 pm

see below

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:02 pm

Andrew A. Libby wrote: newfisher wrote: When the forum turns into an online college for basic automotive repair and the specific technical assistance is lost, there will be some that shake thier head when responding.

There have been A TON of very knowledgeable elders that have left the forum for many reasons, this is one of them.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Intolerance for new individuals asking questions and responding rudely to them is a much bigger issue on this forum than the fact that the new individual asked the question in the first place. I firmly believe that the general rudeness of some members accounts for the absence of a lot more knowledgeable people than the fact that new members ask simple questions. The way that you and TK have rudely responded to this individual is far, far, far more stupid and idiotic than his questions.

Where in my post was I directly rude to him?

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:12 pm

I never got even close to calling anyone stupid or idiotic.

I said in so many words & examples, why bother tearing it down to repair the bad cam & it's bearings, when HELLO CRANKSHAFT , HELLO RODS, bearings are staring him right in the face.
Ignore them?

This is a very foolish move.

I failed to inquire how many hours or miles on this engine?

Besides the lower end & rods, what else is there to ignore to guarantee a sound, reliable power plant after the fact?
Cross dressing the cylinders, checking the ring end gap, piston to wall clearances, the valves, seats, the heads condition--no cracks?

The OP did ask if he was required to purchase a complete gasket set.

What would you say?
"Just cave & pave the engine with what is wrong with it now?"

Very foolish move regardless how you want to put it.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:40 pm

Berkut,

You will benefit from the services of a good local machine shop. They will have the expensive measuring instruments and the knowledge of how to use them. Getting the correct tolerance between every moving part of your engine is critical. Paying someone to help you with the finer points of this process, will be worthwhile in so may ways.

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:44 pm

Terry Kay wrote: I never got even close to calling anyone stupid or idiotic.

Ummm, really? Perhaps you need to read what you wrote... bold font is my edit

Terry Kay wrote:
Totally a very idiotic thought.

Terry Kay wrote:
You shouldn't have ever asked that lame question.