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Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:26 pm

After reading my Baja Bugs and Buggies book, along with countless internet pages I have come to the realization that there are a lot of reasons a Baja Bug enthusiast should be a master welder. I have absolutely no experience with the process and would like to get some opinions as to the necessity of it all.

First off, is it going to be worth the time and money to buy welding equipment and learn? Or, is it easy enough to outsource the work and have somebody who knows what they are doing perform all the work. Now to put this into context, for some reason, I have a real obsession with the idea of getting a baja bug airborne. I'm not sure if that little tidbit will change any reccomendations, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

Secondly, I have done a preliminary search on Ebay and have found new Miller arc welders in the sub-$100 range. I understand the different types of welding and realize that most welders use MIG or TIG rigs in the +$400 range. Do these cheap Arc Welders have a place in your garage? Or is it best to save up and go for the gusto?

Well, hopefully I have not worn out my welcome with all of this chatter, I'm just trying to flesh out the real cost of owning and operating a real baja bug.

Thanks!

Guy

Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:50 pm

Personally I have a Lincoln Pro135 mig. I believe its about the biggest (most amps) you can get while still using 110V. I paid $400+ tax back in May of '03. I learned how to weld with a arc welder from my dad and learned more about arc welding, gas welding (flame, oxy, etc) and mig in high school. I think its pretty necessary to have a welder on hand so you can fabricate your own stuff, since that is the nature of the beast, IMO. Especially since you want to ' go airborne'. I welded together my rollcage and mounts for my rear engine cage and eventually I'll connect everything to a long travel front end. I can see it kinda being a hassle having someone else doing; making sure they understand what you want done, what your willing to pay, trips going back to them to have stuff done or repaired, etc, etc. I'll say this loosely; welding isnt all the hard. Plus you'll have the satisfaction of saying you did it yourself.
I think it'd be worth your while to find out if a local vocational school offers beginer and intermediate courses during evenings ( I have no idea of your schedule).

But also consider the other things you need to go along with metal fabrication, such as a grinder, chopsaw, perhaps an acetylene torch, and of course room for all this and to work and store extra metal.

So I guess as long as your serious about this being your hobby its up to you on how much you want to invest into your tools and skills. I enjoy working on other automobiles besides baja vw's, so my investments are used for other projects also.

Check out www.blindchickenracing.com . the guys there put together a list of what they have in their shop, so it gives ya an idea too.

PM me if you have any other questions

Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:57 pm

Heres a good summary of my gibberish of above....
Go to some classes or find someone that can show you some basic welding skills. At the same time you'll find out about all the necessary equipment and what you need or should get to begin with. AT the very least you'll know more about it and what it all intales and what to look for when your having someone else do it.

Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:11 pm

Hey, one Bible length post deserves another. Thanks for the response. Is there much place for one of those cheapie arc welders? Am I correct in assuming that if you plan on welding roll cages, etc. you will need a MIG setup?

Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:07 pm

As far as the sub-$100 miller welder goes, you CAN weld OK with it, but it takes a bit more practice than on a mig welder. A mig welder is more user friendly, but more $$$. I recommend saving the $$ and getting a good mig. What I did at first was to pay someone to do my welding for me, but after a while, I came up with too many projects to farm the welding out. You'll come up with a plethora (ya, I said plethora) of projects to use a welder on after you start welding.

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:14 am

You can do fine work with an arc welder, aside from Oxy/Acet that's all there was for quite awhile. Take a look at any mobile rig of a man who makes his living welding - you'll find a big gas fired arc set up. However - the lil cracker box's you're looking at will be a complete waste of your money IMO. You'll find you don't have the temp control you really need or any kind of reasonable duty cycle & it'll leave you frustrated and baffled thinking welding is some sort of black art. If you did somehow survive the experiance, you'll buy yourself a decent MIG anyway, so do yourself a favor and buy a decent MIG in the 1st place - and don't think of getting the cheapest one you find either. The more you spend, the better the welder - duty cycle, heat controls and capacity All good things. Another amazing fact is there's only two places that make MIG welders. For all the different brands on the market, they ALL came outta 1 of the 2 factories So if you research you'll find that you really are paying extra for the name in some cases (like lincoln or miller). I'll admit the lincoln has a little bit nicer controls then my Hobart185, but the internals and comsumables are exactly the same, for roughly $120 less then the same size lincoln. wiring for a 230 outlet in your shop is pretty simple, but I'll admit a 110 would be handy since you "could" take it over to a buddys house and plug it in to do some work for him. I bought the 185 so I could do 1/4" stock in a single pass. 1/4" is pretty thick, and I think I'ce only worked with it 4 or 5 times so it might be a bit of over-kill, but the price diff between the 135 110v unit and the 185 230v I bought was so msmall I couldn't justify not getting the larger machine, but this is all a story for another time.

To buy or farm out? If you're going to be in the "hobby" - BUY! You'll quickly find that @ roughly $45-50 per hour a tradesman is going to charge you, you could've paid for a decent MIG many times over before you finish your 1st car. Add to that the PIA factor of taking parts/chassis someplace to have something done, waiting for it to be done then picking it up and towing it home it doesn't make any sense. Additionally, if I can't sleep @ 3AM, I can just wonder out to the shop and make some little gizmo I've been thinking about - try & get a welder outta bed at 3AM and see what that's going to cost you :shock:

I'd agree with things greg mgm metioned about outfitting your shop from scratch. Nothing for a home shop is really incredibly expensive - because it's not going to be in constant use, therefore you really don't "need" the top-of-the-line equipment. But if you've got nothing now & you add up all the stuff you want - it can seem like a huge amount. Don't despair! Start with things you really need and slowly add to your collection - get "good" stuff so you don't have to buy the same thing twice and soon you'll find yourself wishing you had a bigger shop. The other thing you'll soon discover is the truely incredible amount you use the stuff once you have it! Not only for yourself, but for all your friends who don't have the equipment. I know a couple of people that not only keep their beer fridge overflowing by doing favors for people, but actually make a few dollars on the side as well ~ and a lil extra cash always comes in handy when playing with big boy toys :D

Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:23 am

Thanks for the words of wisdom. The more I think about it, the more I realize that welding is just one of those things I want to know how to do. I think it's probably my parents fault, always buying me erector sets and legos instead of gi joes.

Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:05 am

I have a $1000 dollar rule. For every major segment of car building (welding/ mechanical/ bodywork) you're going to need $1000 worth of tools to get results you are going to be happy with. You can do it all with less, but you'll also be less happy with the results.
Welding/parts fabricating- a good MIG welder, grinder, sander, cutting tools, eye protection, gas, wire, etc.- $1000.

Your best bet in the short term is to farm out the "one-off" stuff- tube bending, trailing arm fabrication,etc., and save your own skills for cage assembly, body repair and modification,and fixing what breaks. You WILL break things! For example, tubing benders are spendy items, and unless you are building your own buggy frame, you're not likely to see a return on your investment.

if you are going to cage your car, good welding skills are a necessity- your life may depend on the quality of your welds. I learned welding the old fashioned way- practice, practice, practice. I have a cheap 110 CH mig which has proven adequate for my needs (light fabrication and body work.) a good air compressor is a big help- it's nice to be able run a die grinder, cut-off wheel, air grinder and sander to clean up your work.

i picked up one of the little buzz-box 110 arc welders at a surplus store for less than $50. I didn't really need it, but the price was right, and i thought it might be handy to have a little lightweight welder for small household jobs, like porch railings, bike frames, tree houses (don't ask), etc. My MIG is on a cart, but it's still a little cumbersome outside the garage, so the idea of a small 25 lb. welder appealed to me.
I've never used it.

get a GOOD mask. auto-darkening is nice, and really cuts down the frustration level, especially for a beginner- see it, weld it, see it again.

Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:57 pm

and always be on the lookout for deals

i picked up a complete arc/tig setup for $300

:D

Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:48 am

I own a gas setup, a MIG, and use TIG occasionally. I have welded on lots of cars, including building my own spaceframe car for road racing.

If it's just the usual home use and playing with cars, I say get a used cheap 110V MIG somewhere, they are very cheap especially used, I got mine for free because the regulator "went bad" and the owner didn't use it much. $7 regulator part later and I've used it almost weekly for 5 or so years now. You will get what you pay for, if you happen across a Miller or Lincoln get it, but mine is a cheap italian made "powermig 110" and it works great as long as you uncoil the extension cord (it's an inductor when it's wrapped up-trust me it makes a difference) and make up for it's short comings by thinking about what you are doing. I have found that with a little practice most people can MIG weld well enough for car stuff.
Use Lincoln L-56 wire (home depot), 75-25 Argon-CO2 or similar, buy a really good ground clamp, and learn to clean the weld area well before you strike an arc. Get the auto dark helmet, even the $50 harbor freight one if that's all you can afford. It WILL make you a better welder and take away some frustration learning. I have a 110A welder with 4 current settings and continuously variable wire feed rate, and can weld thin car sheetmetal up to about 3/16 single pass.
get a book on MIG and read up, then practice on junk a little bit to get a feel for it. test your practice welds by clamping in a vice and breaking them, then look for penetration. start looking at commercial product with welds on them to see what a good one looks like.
I always count tools as an investment, since they can be used on the next car and the house. Also a welder will save you lots of money fixing the lawnmower, making special tools, etc.. Plus if you drop $100 on a used welder and decide it's not for you, someone else will buy it from you.
Or you could pay a local welder a month's salary to put your stuff together.

Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:20 am

I have 3 welders at my hobby shop. (1) 250 amp Lincoln mig -computerized 230V, (1) 135 amp Lincoln mig 230V, and (1) 250 Amp Lincoln Tig welder....all bought new and I have been very happy ever since. They paid for themselves too!

Do not be afraid to spend the money on good equipment. I have spent lots on my machine shop and they make me happy. My blood pressure is lower too since I have been doing my own work.

Get the real thing. Do not fool around with the cracker jack welders..they are junk.

Sign out some books from the library on welding. Know the process well. It could mean your life someday...especially if you are welding your own roll cage.

good luck/

Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:27 pm

im pretty much in the same boat as you, i went and spent the $$$$ on a miller 210 and am currently teaching myself (and my wife) to weld, i got a few books and some scrap to practice with

im going to be building some benches and stuff for the garage before i build something to possibly save my life and whoever else is in the car :idea: :D

im lucky enough to own my house so when i re-fied i got to get a bunch of tools, bender ect... but in my research for a welder the thing i came accross several times was that the less expensive welders (off brand name) may work fine but if something does go wrong its very hard to get parts, but with a miller, lincoln if something goes bad i can goto the local welding supply and at the very worst case order it and not have to wait for it to be sent from china or wherever

like i said i got the miller 210, for now its over way overkill, ill probably never use the highest setting and cant see in the near future me hitting the duty cycle, im happy that i got the 210 because ill never have to buy another mig welder again, and if it gets to the point i need something else ill get a tig machine, so if money is a big thing (isnt always :? ) go with something smaller and you should be fine for awhile

mig welding is pretty easy, ive used mine for about a total of an hour and can lay some nice beads.... sometimes :lol: other times its down-right ugly, like anything practice practice practice

pm me and ill tell you where i got my welder( seems to be fopa(sp?) to list a company one the forums), they have good prices, free shipping and if you catch them at the right time they have a free auto dark helmet, i paid for my helmet and it was still worth it :D

and yes buy a welder, its already worth it for myself

just looked at the site, i guess miller is having a price increase at the end of the month :roll: something to keep in mind