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Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:42 am

I havent taken it to the shop yet but felt id give it one more try
to see if i can at least avoid the tow and drive it there.

Heres what I have:
67 square, new motor (1000 miles), stock carbs, 009
Heres what happened:
Was driving home, started missing pretty bad, but made it home.
Heres what i found:
Plugs rich rich, probably fouled. Carbs wet on the bottom
on one side, i already had a rebuild kit so nows the time.

Heres what i did:
Changed plugs, rebuilt carbs.
-- Car runs, runs rich. pops crazily.
- Checked timing, seems my dizzy was whacked. (maye no adv?)
put another one. Set timing to about 30 adv, seems to adv ok
- new points, condensor, another set of wires (used)
- adjusted valves, 2 times
- New plugs (again)
- Took apart carbs again, checked for intake leaks, all seems ok,
balance tube looks good, manifolds look good.
-- Car runs, rich as can be, puffs black smoke a little, and pops and backfires and shoots fires through both carbs.
- Tried syncing and adjusting. No dice. Car runs with mixture screws
1.5 out decent and doesnt chug off the line like it did when i started, but once you hold it above 2000 rpm, it pops and shoots fire. You also cannot drive it, 1st gear is ok, 2nd gear just falls on its face. When you disconnect electromagnetic cutoffs one at a time, it runs on 1 carb like it should. All 4 are firing. Checked the points, new cap and rotor. mixture adjustments dont help running rich or popping/backfiring really. You can actually turn them in all the way and car keeps running. I put the original mixture screws back on and took the ones out from the rebuild kit in case maybe they were wrong (solex factory rebuild kit). I changed the float valves from the rebuild kit as one of the new ones seemed to be sticking (wet carb, gasket new, screws tight, stock pump), so i put the old ones back. Its still (to me) running rich. Plugs black sooty. Ground black where the exaust comes out. When you look down the barrell (avoiding fire) you see the accel pumps shooting perfectly (they sprinkled before) but the mains just kinda sprinkle gas randomly with the rpms up. Mind you its still running rich, at least at idle, so the gas isnt coming from the mains anyways. When i took apart carbs, i cleaned the bejeezus out of them, blew them out, replaced all gaskets but the internal base ones (i have them. just didnt do them, didnt take them apart). Changed coil to another old one, spark looks good to me, put my old (but better than spare crappy ones, these are 1 year old bosch) wires back on, check points again, all looks well, timing is ok. I even checked tdc to make sure the dizzy gear was in right, it is. Hit it again last night, same thing, pops and shoots fire. I just need it to make it about 10 miles to the shop, is there anything that i missed?
jasonw

Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:12 am

WOW - :shock:

sorry i cant help but nice detail. thats a lot of info - and an awful lot of variables.

perhaps you forgot to sacrifice a goat and burn something!

Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:18 am

Actually I did sacrifice a goat and tried adjusting the carbs while calling the pyschic hotline, standing on 1 foot, neither helped, i forgot and omited them..
jasonw
p.s. i set the timing during a full moon if that helps.
p.p.s. the car very well might be sacrificed soon.

Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:57 am

What about the condenser???

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:14 pm

I tried 2 condensors, the one that was on the car and the one on the distributor i put in, not new though, it didnt help the problem. My spare could be bad of course. I might have tried 3 even, all the steps above, ive probably tried multiple times. Im really thinking carbs. The shop im taking it too says he has some t3 carbs around and if thats what it needs i can have them. I just cant imagine whats making my carbs run so rich, ive never had these carbs (or a t3) before but they look just like all the other ones ive dealt with. Im not very knowlegable about carbs but i can usually make them run, ive never had to pay for vw mechanical work so its a pisser I say. On a bug id just slap another carb on, for this car i have no t3 specific spares at all. I even thought about throwing some kadrons i have in my stash on it just to see if it did run! But resisted the urge. It would sure look funny, if they even fit.
jasonw

Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:56 pm

I re- read your first post and it sounds like ONE carb is wet on the bottom. I thought it was both first time I read it. How do the plugs look? Are they ALL fouled, or just on the side of the carb with a wet bottom?
Until I get more info, I'm betting on defective needle and seat, or maybe float in that one carb.

Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:51 pm

Ok rebuilding the carbs fixed the wet carb, i put all new seals, that seems ok, but i believe it caused another problem, the richness. I think it was runing rich before but not too bad (but bad enough to foul out the plugs nasty after 1000 miles), now its running un drivable rich, and untuneable rich. The carbs are clean and sealed and dry. And not working. ;) The one side seemed to have a bad float valve after the rebuild, so i put the stock ones back in, fixed that. Didnt touch other problem. I have so much rolling around, i left this out but shouldnt matter, they originally were wet from accel pumps that were bad and a bad center gasket, new gaskets fixed that, after I changed out that 1 float valve, i did change them both back to the originals even though they looked the same, i didnt want anything to be different between the 2 carbs. Im back to thinking ignition but ive changed everything (twice), but maybe some of my spares are bad too. I dunno. Frustrated. I just shudder to think how im going to get it on a flatbed, i dont even mind taking it to the shop, i just know the front is going to get bashed trying to tow it. It was towed once as i bought it with a blown motor, and that guy was very careful, but it took someone that gave a damn, and that probably not too common among tow drivers. Well see. as it is now im going to try to stay home from work and have it towed.
jsaonw
edit - just got home and took it for a spin, its drivable, just pops under (any) load, but ifi baby it i think it will ake the drive there so overall im happy. well, i woudlnt go that far..

Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:05 pm

Are the little plastic spacers on top the float pivot pin?? These are known to disappear when the top is pulled off the carb.
How about vacuum leaks.
How about with the FI distributor back in and ditch the 009. You don't need to use the FI vacuum advance, just the mechanical portion. It is one of the best timing curves you can find.
What does the dwell do when it is acting up.
More to follow.

Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:09 am

I just drpped it off at the shop, their problem. YOu know aobut halfway there i guess the (new) plugs cleared up and it started running much better. Its still not powerful (never was) and if you romp on it it would fall on its head, but it was ok, but i left it anyways, just let them go through it and see if they can find anything, especially since im driving it to bug jam in a few weeks just want to make sure its ok.
jasonw
p.s. yes the pivot spacers are there, but metal. Vacuum i think is good, i dont think any intake leaks but dont really have a way to test for them other than tspray the joints which i did but found nothing. One of the things the vw shop is doing is going through his stash o distributors and put a proper t3 one on, the one i had turned out to be a bug one (74) once i dug it up. (but it came off an unmolested t3 hence my mistake). Ill let you all know what he came up with.

Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:12 am

Got it done, they charged me 2 hrs to take off the carbs, dip them, put them back on and adjust them and check timing and points which were right anyways. Cleaned plugs (they were new just dirty from carbs being out of tune) and did compression test as i thought i had damaged the motor, but all is fine, so im happy overall. I havent driven it as it was burried when i went over there earlier but getting it later, hopefully its right, this guy is really good so id think it will be.
jasonw

Sat Oct 30, 2004 6:12 am

ANd of course.. its not right.. Now it runs of thee line perfect, but falls on its face on the highway, and wont go more than 55 (it used to do 75). It pops it you romp on it o the highway too, seems like fuel. Took out pump, checked pump, fine, took out tank, checked outlet, pours out, seems to go to rear fine, only filter is new. Put back togther, test, shoots decent. I think the mains in the carbs are still clogged. (these carbs had no filter when i got the car driven god knows how long nad the tank is nasty, i cleand them as best i could but think i blew the mains the wrong way as you can get a tip in the outlet really). Im going to work to get compressor and try some more. BAH.
jasonw

Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:01 am

Hang in there, Jason. I know the frustration of doing everything you can think of and still having the car give you trouble . . .

Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:07 pm

OK another 3 hrs in the car. Took both carbs apart (again), changed the base gasket (the only one i didnt change before, dont ask me why, i dont know). Now 1 carb adjusts perfectly as its supposed to. 1 doesnt. Same one that was giving me trouble before. I can turn the volume screw in all the way and the idle doesnt go down, it goes up. This is with 2 new intake gaskets as well, and what i really believe is no intake leaks and the balance tube is right. It does run, i can drive it now with minimal popping, basicly you just cant give it more gas than it wants, if you ease into anything it will do it. I havet taken it back on the highway, i assume it willbe the same. I also used the compressor to blow out the fuel line from the tank, it was good. Blew the bejesus out of the carbs (again), and check all gaskets and jets. Im thinking i just have a bad passenger side carb somehow. What exactly would cause the carb do do this? Vaccum leak, low vacuum, intake leak? The shop said i could bring it back as it wasnt right which i might have to resort to doing.
jasonw

Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:09 pm

Pull the plugs on the side with the errant carb and let me know what colour they are.
I had a carb on my '66 with a screwy needle and seat that was INTERMITTENTLY screwy. Try gently tapping the top of the carb by the fuel inlet while it's running and see if that makes any difference. Usually a pop/ backfire = too lean. Most people mistakenly think it's too rich.
Also make sure the manifold nuts are snug at the head.

Sun Oct 31, 2004 9:06 pm

Will do, ill let you know tommarow. Im going to have a friend help me look at it, maybe im missing something. I agree popping is usually lean, shooting fire out carb is rich no? (assuming timing is right, which it is). It is popping now if you gun it, but not if you ease into it. The thing that (sorta) concerns me is the one carb adjusts properly and the other doesnt, at least its helping me see the problem, till now its been totally hard to find things, i think ive got it mostly beat and i can drive it around now so im happier with it, just a shame it took me 2 months to get the time to fix it. What it seems my options now are is, intake leak, or bad carb on that side. I have rebuilt them including new needles, all new gaskets, and new intake manifold gaskets. Im yanking them all apart again tommarow and changing them and cleaning all surfaces hoping maybe it is an intake leak. If not maybe my carb needs to be rebushed? I have someone that can do it if so. Something i noticed (that would have been sweet had it been the deal) was the hole for the vacuum port (open on the drivers side) is there and open on the passenger side carb, but the hole in the base plate is filled, so it doesnt matter. I put a plug it in anyways for wishful thinking. Didnt help.

Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:55 am

Hopefully this is the end of this saga. The car runs ok now, not perfect but it really never did. What seemed to solve it was advancing the timing some, i had it at 30 but it runs alot better now, im also going to 91-3 gas. I dont know why it helped, but im sticking with my friend that its ok for the motor even though i know basicly its not, he has been fixing them forever. Adjusted the carbs a few more times, advanced a little and it does 70 again, doesnt pop, etc. Both carbs do seem to adjust propely now as well. It might be running rich still, im going to chek the plugs in a few days. I literally hosed down the carbs with intake cleaner to check for intake leaks, nothing, checked the throttle shafts, nothing. I dunno. I also finnaly got the vacuum distributor, its 69 t3 one. I need a cap and rotor for it, im not putting it on until after bug jam, but hopefully it makes it drive a little better. Around the town now its fine, on the highway its still a little iffy but it will get up to speed and stay there just fine, just not passing anyone! I also need to get a different spring and adjust throttle cable to get full throttle, its only probably getting half. Hopefully no problems for a little while! Thanks for the help and replies..
jasonw

Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:37 am

bugginmiami wrote: What seemed to solve it was advancing the timing some, i had it at 30 but it runs alot better now, im also going to 91-3 gas. I dont know why it helped, but im sticking with my friend that its ok for the motor even though i know basicly its not, he has been fixing them forever. I also need to get a different spring and adjust throttle cable to get full throttle, its only probably getting half.
jasonw

What is basically not right? The timing advance or the 93 octane. I have read on these forums that several owners use 93 octane. I use it in mine. Maybe it's more expensive, but my understanding is that 93 octane can help reduce head temps. If so, then it's worth it to me. As to timing advance, my engine ran best when the 009 was timed at 32 degrees full advance. I've read that timing beyond 32 might not be too good for the engine (all I know is what I've read). Also, you may find that the future vacuum advance distributor may improve driveability even further. It made a big difference when I switched out my 009 for vacuum advance. And if you've only got half throttle due to throttle cable adjustment, it's amazing you can drive 70 mph. My gosh, what'll it do with full throttle?!

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:02 am

The timing is what concerned me. I was running 87 in it for a while (except on trips) as its a stock low compression motor. I dont mind running 93, just more expensive. I dont even know what the timing is at, probably 32-34, when set by the gun at 30 it wasnt right, i just know that much. He has a good snap on timing light too. What i did (maybe this was wrong) was set the gun at 22, and timed it off the first notch (7.5), to give me the 30. I think this is right but it just ran like ass top end. I know me, ill probably try the new dizzy before the trip provided i can get a cap and rotor for it. Advancing and clearing the plugs and readjusting the carbs and it seems back to normal. I went to tampa on less than half throttle at 75 last time! It took a while to get to speed but it did it! When i adjust it to hold up the pedal, it holds open the throttles a little, the carbs dont have any springs, just the center one, so im going to try to find some at the hardware store. Now i can move to accesories! Get my fogs and some other fun stuff installed, took to long to get past this part..
jasonw

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:30 am

bugginmiami wrote: I dont even know what the timing is at, probably 32-34, when set by the gun at 30 it wasnt right, i just know that much. He has a good snap on timing light too. What i did (maybe this was wrong) was set the gun at 22, and timed it off the first notch (7.5), to give me the 30. When i adjust it to hold up the pedal, it holds open the throttles a little, the carbs dont have any springs, just the center one, so im going to try to find some at the hardware store.jasonw

Yup, that's what I would do to set the timing. I found it easier to do the math in my head if I used the center mark - 10 degrees. That way 22 degrees on the timing gun and 10 degrees on the pulley will get you 32 total. I've had 4 different spring setups on my engine. The car came with Weber 34 ICT's, so there are no stock springs for each carb. I've had the setup that the PO arranged...spring hooked to cable bracket, the other end hooked to a clamp for the inlet fuel hose on the fuel pump! I tried to hook up individual springs for each carb, but nothing worked satisfactorily. I've tried two different single spring setups, lots of cutting and shortening of springs, and only now am I somewhat satisfied. Keep in mind, it works much, much better after I swapped the carbs around......the PO mounted them backwards! I feel your pain, brother.

Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:46 am

Funny, these cars will kill you if given half the chance, always learning and tinkering. Im not sure if i was smarter 10 years ago or what, but it didnt seem i had these kinda problems when they were my daily drivers. I have stock carbs so they are pretty obvious which side is which! Just a mission whenever you get a car that is new to you to get it the way you want it. I know for some carbs they dont want you to put a spring on the carb, or to be careful where it goes as it pulls the shaft up and puts strain (and wear) on the bushings, as your and my carbs are 'disposable' basicly thats a bad thing. People can rebush them, just seems like very few people do. Mine came with a spring, they just arent there, but there is at least 1 hole where i see where it goes, so ill get it going, and have mostly full throttle, then ill be doing 100 to tampa. (maybe not).
jasonw